Wildfowling candidate for BASC Election

[Reabrook]

Kes,

 

What your talking about is ideology. A nirvana that all can shoot and enjoy. It's never going to happen. It's impossible to please all within a small Wildfowling Club how can you even begin to think you can please all within an organisation the size of BASC. Whatever or if ever land is bought by the BASC it will cause division and never suit all members.

 

If as you say you were once a Wildfowler you must have had some pretty bad companions and experiences because in all my time I've never met the likes of people you describe. Solitary at times maybe but never uncaring or such like. Fowlers are responsible for introducing many others to the shooting sports more so than game shooters etc and is currently the most accessible form of shooting for many.

 

Terry is right in that no Wildfowler is saying that only marshland or Wildfowling land should be bought but to my mind it makes the most sense. Arable land is sold at top price and needs its resources i.e. quarry species renewing annually to be viable. Land suitable for Coastal Wildfowling is often cheaper with migratory populations of quarry and easier to self police. OK so not everyone would want to go Wildfowling but then not everyone would want to engage of other aspects of the shooting either.

 

Either we get of our ***** and make a start or we let the RSPB continue to erode what little is left. Going round and round in circles trying in vain to be 'inclusive' will see the end of us all.

 

John had my vote because he IS a Wildfowler and therefore likely to get things done.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Reabrook

[mudpatten]

No other branch of shooting is under quite the same pressureas that fowling is at the moment.

 

Having the foresight to recognise that, accept it, and plan accordingly are the hallmarks of sound tactical and strategic thinking.

 

The task for which we are elcting Council is to save shooting for future generations. One of the most important things needed for that to be achieved, is to have somewhere to shoot.

 

Council is not being elected to implement a policy of inclusion.

 

I`ve voted for John because he has a proven track record of sound strategic and tactical thinking that have already brought long term benefits to BASC and I have every confidence that he will do the same again should he be elected.

[Kes]

No other branch of shooting is under quite the same pressureas that fowling is at the moment.

 

Having the foresight to recognise that, accept it, and plan accordingly are the hallmarks of sound tactical and strategic thinking.

 

The task for which we are elcting Council is to save shooting for future generations. One of the most important things needed for that to be achieved, is to have somewhere to shoot.

 

Council is not being elected to implement a policy of inclusion.

 

I`ve voted for John because he has a proven track record of sound strategic and tactical thinking that have already brought long term benefits to BASC and I have every confidence that he will do the same again should he be elected.

That being the case then it will accentuate division, Nor is what I have suggested ideology, merely my ideology, there are many such approaches to policy. Nirvanah I accept is not going to be possible but merely stating that coastal land is under most threat (unconfirmed) and that it should be bought, denies achieving a majority viewpoint perhaps. We are not going to agree but all I am saying is that coastal land may be under the greatest threat, Some of it may well be good wildfowling land, but saying it does not make it so, and a simple nod to the remainder of the membership of BASC is not enough - you have to take others (who have equal rights) with you. To me that means agreeing a policy for land purchase that others can sign -up to. Policy, startegy, formalised assessment method and mechanisms.. It cannot simply be a case of - its coastal land BASC must buy it because it has reserves and it will be lost to wildfowling otherwise. It doesnt seem to much to ask to be even sensibly inclusive when spending large amounts of money ?

[mudpatten]

You are quite right that it does not seem too much to ask to be sensibly inclusive when spending large amounts of money.

 

Part of the process of inclusion is education.

 

Much of that education is already happening, and has been for years, via the BASC magazine Shooting and Conservation whereby engaged shooters cannot fail to have realised with such things as the introduction of non toxic shot,coastal access issues, Reference Areas, Consent etc, etc, etc, that fowling is under more pressure than any other form of shooting.

 

Incidentally, I`m not just saying this, it is actually true and is something clearly recognised by a huge number of shooters who do not consider themselves to be wildfowlers but who have been paying attention to the contents of the magazine in a way that you do not seem to have done, nor do you appear to give any credit for others understanding that which you do not.

[Dee Wildfowler]

I am unashamedly a wildfowler, always have been although I do enjoy roost shooting pigeons and I have worried some of those long tailed chickens that are popular with many. Despite my passion for wildfowling, I have fought for and supported all other branches of shooting, even although they might not hold appeal for me. I stand by the saying "We are only as strong as our weakest link" so we must not stupidly divide ourselves. Land purchase as I've proposed it in the papers I've written, is a long term goal and I talked about securing BASC's position at the end of this century, so land purchase will be an ongoing policy for the next 90+ years. I talked about land purchase being like a snow ball rolling down a hill, small to start off with but getting bigger as time goes by. The first few acquistions will no doubt cause mutterings of discontent "why did they buy that, it's no good to me", it will not be possible to do everything at once but in time I'm confident that everyone's vested interest will be included. So for fairness and impartiality, I suggested an independent panel of experts to advise on the purchases.

 

I'm sure that with time, the number of acquisitions will increase and that will enthuse the membership and give confidence that BASC is the organisation to promote and protect shooting in this country.

 

John

[mudpatten]

Visionary!

 

Why do some persist with the self defeating belief that only the RSPB can buy land?

 

If they can do it, then so can we!

[nic]

I am lucky enough to have met, spoken with and shot with John.

He has my vote and my trust that he will act in an honest effort to assist all shooters... even the non wildfowlers.

In regards to the land purchase, you only have to look at how clubs and groups who own land are teated differently by NE etc.

Financially it makes great sense as land is and always has been the best hedge against inflation etc.

Also any land that BASC buys will not end up as a no go area for shooters

 

Good luck John

[wildfowlingmad]

I can tell you that our wildfowling club very nearly lost its shooting grounds because we never went through with land purchases when we had the chance. I think it is a no brainer to invest in land if the finance is available and of course we are all going to biased towards wildfowling, this is the wildfowling section!!! Owning the land is the only way to ensure the future, even more important with all the restriction that keep falling on marshes...
Sorry Kes I disagree with you, what particular part of country sports are you more worried about? I think there will always be a place for a pigeon shooter, a rabbit shooter, a deer stalker or game shooter because there is financial advantage for people to do it! For wildfowling those looking in from outside the shooting world don't get it (I am not saying you don't, you clearly know your stuff). Because we don't control pests to help farmers, we don't provide meat for sale (anymore) and we don't pay Huge quantities of money to do it, this is why we see our selves as special because we are, this is just the opinion of simple me though, probably reads awfully but I hope you see my point..

[joknob]

I can tell you that our wildfowling club very nearly lost its shooting grounds because we never went through with land purchases when we had the chance. I think it is a no brainer to invest in land if the finance is available and of course we are all going to biased towards wildfowling, this is the wildfowling section!!! Owning the land is the only way to ensure the future, even more important with all the restriction that keep falling on marshes...
Sorry Kes I disagree with you, what particular part of country sports are you more worried about? I think there will always be a place for a pigeon shooter, a rabbit shooter, a deer stalker or game shooter because there is financial advantage for people to do it! For wildfowling those looking in from outside the shooting world don't get it (I am not saying you don't, you clearly know your stuff). Because we don't control pests to help farmers, we don't provide meat for sale (anymore) and we don't pay Huge quantities of money to do it, this is why we see our selves as special because we are, this is just the opinion of simple me though, probably reads awfully but I hope you see my point..

[Kes]

You are quite right that it does not seem too much to ask to be sensibly inclusive when spending large amounts of money.

 

Part of the process of inclusion is education.

 

Much of that education is already happening, and has been for years, via the BASC magazine Shooting and Conservation whereby engaged shooters cannot fail to have realised with such things as the introduction of non toxic shot,coastal access issues, Reference Areas, Consent etc, etc, etc, that fowling is under more pressure than any other form of shooting.

 

Incidentally, I`m not just saying this, it is actually true and is something clearly recognised by a huge number of shooters who do not consider themselves to be wildfowlers but who have been paying attention to the contents of the magazine in a way that you do not seem to have done, nor do you appear to give any credit for others understanding that which you do not.

 

I read the BASC news regularly but find it a little self congratulatory and a little sensationalist - I give anyone credit for understanding and I am aware of the pressures but I am not reactionary or insular - being rude helps no sensible argument reach a useful conclusion.

[Kes]

I can tell you that our wildfowling club very nearly lost its shooting grounds because we never went through with land purchases when we had the chance. I think it is a no brainer to invest in land if the finance is available and of course we are all going to biased towards wildfowling, this is the wildfowling section!!! Owning the land is the only way to ensure the future, even more important with all the restriction that keep falling on marshes...

Sorry Kes I disagree with you, what particular part of country sports are you more worried about? I think there will always be a place for a pigeon shooter, a rabbit shooter, a deer stalker or game shooter because there is financial advantage for people to do it! For wildfowling those looking in from outside the shooting world don't get it (I am not saying you don't, you clearly know your stuff). Because we don't control pests to help farmers, we don't provide meat for sale (anymore) and we don't pay Huge quantities of money to do it, this is why we see our selves as special because we are, this is just the opinion of simple me though, probably reads awfully but I hope you see my point..

 

Hi,

I am mostly worried about the image of shooting sports and ensuring the more general accepetance of the benefits of shooting to the wider community, reducing the isolation of the shooters and the sport in society. This I see as the core of BASC's work and they focus a lot of effort on this. I am a sincere supporter of the way I learned to shoot, interested in the the countryside and wildlife, this translated through a local farm into pest control and then on to specialisms such as Pigeon decoying, mass rabbit control, rough shooting, game shooting and wildfowling. Lately I enjoy fox control and am looking to take the permission to acquire a .308 into deer stalking, principally for control and the meat.

I am an advocate of land purchase, but under the right controls and mechanisms - I dont think that has to be contentious but in an organisation of many members it does have to meet certain standards.

I like your post and thank you for it and thank you for not opting for rudeness, even though I know you disagree with me. Regards, Kes

[mudpatten]

What a very strange comment regarding the content of the BASC magazine!

 

What would you have the BASC news consist of then?

 

Doom, gloom and depression?

 

I`m sorry that you found my comments rude. That was not my intention, but I`m sure that you readily accept the fact that a deliberately provocative statement is quite likely to elicit a terse response.

 

It is, finally, good to read that you actually support the principles of land purchase. It would seem that we have more in common than we both first thought.

[Reabrook]

 

I read the BASC news regularly but find it a little self congratulatory and a little sensationalist - I give anyone credit for understanding and I am aware of the pressures but I am not reactionary or insular - being rude helps no sensible argument reach a useful conclusion.

I think on that note I'll refer you to your opening post on this thread which was both rude, reactionary and also somewhat divisive.

 

You described in detail the failings, in your opinion, of conviction attributed to Wildfowlers yet don't appear to judge your self or your own convictions in quite the same way.

 

I said before that what you were advocating was ideology and I stand by that and see this as a thinly veiled attempt to politicise the issue of land purchase. Shooting as a whole not the least Wildfowling has enough problems as it is without opening up another can of worms.

[Kes]

I dont see my opening comment as rude but then I'm not you. It was intended simply to say that a policy to purchase wildfowling land by wildfowlers whose commitment is usually to their own sport (hence WAGBI) is not the way to travel in an inclusive (many faceted) shooting organisation and is potentially devisive. I trust this is more to your taste. I am not suggesting John is the wrong person to vote for merely that 'land purchase' has to be for all elements of the sport and not just wildfowling and using reserves (the term has a meaning in accountancy) should not be knee-jerk but part of a wider, fully thought through approach.

Thanks for your comments - I shall leave it at that.

[andrewluke]

i dont see any of the other basc council candidates putting their manifesto up on here!,

 

andrew

[Reabrook]

I dont see my opening comment as rude but then I'm not you. It was intended simply to say that a policy to purchase wildfowling land by wildfowlers whose commitment is usually to their own sport (hence WAGBI) is not the way to travel in an inclusive (many faceted) shooting organisation and is potentially devisive. I trust this is more to your taste. I am not suggesting John is the wrong person to vote for merely that 'land purchase' has to be for all elements of the sport and not just wildfowling and using reserves (the term has a meaning in accountancy) should not be knee-jerk but part of a wider, fully thought through approach.

Thanks for your comments - I shall leave it at that.

I think many others as well as I saw your opening post as a rude and personal attack. Yet again you appear to have gone around in circles and found conflict were there was none. Who other than you suggested knee jerk non thought through purchase of land was ever on the agenda, John Graham himself had the courtesy to reply in detail with his thoughts on the matter despite your obvious disdain.

[Kes]

I think many others as well as I saw your opening post as a rude and personal attack. Yet again you appear to have gone around in circles and found conflict were there was none. Who other than you suggested knee jerk non thought through purchase of land was ever on the agenda, John Graham himself had the courtesy to reply in detail with his thoughts on the matter despite your obvious disdain.

You are entitled to your point of view as am I. If you notice I have explained why land purchase solely for wildfowling isnt on - IMHO.

Also the wholesale use of reserves is unwise as they are there for a purpose.

A surplus of reserves, if there is one, over all commitments and reasonable financial risk assessments may well be available for any purpose but not just buying land for wildfowling. My point all along.

If you think in explaining this is going round in circles then I am afraid I disagree but you carry on unaffected and perhaps unaware of what I have actually said - its probably for the best.and this really is my last post even if your next is as 'rude' as your last.

I dont think I have shown disdain for anyone but of course, you are probably right are you not ?

[Reabrook]

You are entitled to your point of view as am I. If you notice I have explained why land purchase solely for wildfowling isnt on - IMHO.

Also the wholesale use of reserves is unwise as they are there for a purpose.

A surplus of reserves, if there is one, over all commitments and reasonable financial risk assessments may well be available for any purpose but not just buying land for wildfowling. My point all along.

If you think in explaining this is going round in circles then I am afraid I disagree but you carry on unaffected and perhaps unaware of what I have actually said - its probably for the best.and this really is my last post even if your next is as 'rude' as your last.

I dont think I have shown disdain for anyone but of course, you are probably right are you not ?

A man of your word then?

 

I've understood your point from the start it is clearly you who can't understand the finer detail. The fact i dont agree with it is another issue. Please point out where I have been rude. To the point maybe but rude - I think not.

[Dee Wildfowler]

Gentlemen,

 

Let's keep a lid on this. Quite rightly Kes wanted clarification on something in my manifesto statement. I'm not sure I did clarify the matter as well as I might have done, so just a couple more points in the hope that it will settle things down.

 

1. There is no suggestion that all the reserves should be used for land purchase but BASC does have some £5million in the bank (the accounts should be in the next edition of S & C due in the next 10 days or so). My understanding is that a recent assesment of what reserves might be required is more in the £2-2.5 million so there is spare money IF Council choses to invest in land.

2. There has never been any suggestion that only wildfowling land will be bought. Wildfowlers are in a minority on Council and the proposal I put to Council was that a panel of independent experts should seclect which land to bid for to remove any accusations of vested interests.

 

I hope this helps to allay fears and if anyone has any other issues they would like to raise, I'll try to answer them.

 

John

[riptide]

Well done Kes ,Very interesting posts and also John some very good replys allowing all to see were you stand.

 

,

I feel Kes you have done John a excellent service by asking in-depth qestions which has most certainly helped his votes along !

 

Riptide

[the wiganer]

john graham got my vote.

[andrewluke]

congratulations John Graham on being elected as a Basc Council member

 

andrew

[-Mongrel-]

Well done Kes ,Very interesting posts and also John some very good replys allowing all to see were you stand.

 

,

I feel Kes you have done John a excellent service by asking in-depth qestions which has most certainly helped his votes along !

 

Riptide

 

I'm not sure the tone of Kes' questioning helped win John votes, but Johns responses did. A balanced but forward looking attitude can only move us forward. Another vote here that went to John and it's good to see that he has been elected to council.

Edited June 8, 2013 by -Mongrel-

[Terry P]

Great news indeed. Lets hope for a more forward looking/thinking council.