Beaters Pay and HMRC

[ColinF]

Not exactly say you did ten days beating at 25 a day, and you bought a coat at say 250 the coat won't be allowable, but if you bought a pair of boots at 200 that will be. So what I am saying is your allowance can't be in excess of your profit, and your allowance can't be transferred to other employment

I don't think the cost of any clothing will be allowable.

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM32455.htm

 

The rules are much different if you are self employed, but beaters are generally employees

[jasons gold]

Yes it will if it's regarded as specialist http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM32465.htm

Edited July 29, 2013 by jasons gold

[ColinF]

Yes it will if it's regarded as specialist http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM32465.htm

 

You are right, but I don't think that you can class beating clothing as specialist. Your link talks about "protective" clothing, I think most beaters wear what HMRC would consider to be normal clothes, and they would wear the same clothes for walking the dog, pigeon shooting, ferreting etc etc.

 

There is a list of the tests that HMRC apply to see if an expense is deductable here:

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM31630.htm

 

Someone who works in forestry buying chainsaw trousers, boots etc would probably meet all of those tests, and those items be would be classed specialist and protective clothing.

 

I can't see how beating clothing could be treated in the same way.

[norfolk dumpling]

I gather a couple of big commercial shoots in Norfolk are going to pay gross (min wage) and leave it to the individual to sort out tax. This is ok for me - I'm paying 20% on my company pension and currently use HMRC systems but hope for those on benefits etc they are given guidance. A friend who does part time work was quite surprised a) he was asked for NI no and address and b) he was paid min wage into his bank a/c. but not told he would have to get self-assessment form. I pointed out big fine - £1,000 - if he didn't declare.

[CharlieT]

I find it unbelievable that anyone of working age does not know that they have to declare all earnings to HMRC, however large or small those earnings may be.

 

The rules state that employers must obtain the beaters (employee's) name and NI number, HMRC will know the address.

 

Those on benefits must declare the income to their benefits office who will, if appropriate, reduce the benefits accordingly.

 

None of this is any different to what it has always been, the only difference is that now the employer notification of payment to HMRC is done in real time (as it happens) rather than at the end of the year. However, I rather think that this method of notification will catch all those who previously slipped through the net.

[norfolk dumpling]

You are being naive here thinking those whose tax affairs have always been looked after by their employers even know what a self-assessment form is. Don't forget almost w/o exception shoots have paid cash up until now - no questions asked and I for one know of no beaters who have declared their earnings. I have spoken to a few keepers who are genuinely concerned they will lose beaters with the spectre of either tax forms or benefit losses once this bites.

 

My friend who has just fallen into the HMRC RTI trap was a former Chartered Surveyor (40 yrs with Local Gov) who hadn't got a clue he had to declare his p/t wage. What chance a farm labourer??

[CharlieT]

Well all I can say is that , as a farm labourer myself, I know all earnings need to be declared. Nor do I know of one dim witted farm worker who doesn't, perhaps we are not so dim witted as some think and it would seem a cut above local government employees.

 

I do though think that if shoots do have problems attracting beaters, they will soon come to an arrangement with HMRC to pay the tax due themselves, as many shoots have been doing for years.

 

As you quite rightly say the problem hits those on benefits the hardest, I guess they will lose their benefit £ for £ earned.

[ColinF]

Anyone claiming benefits and working, but not declaring the income, is guilty of tax evasion and benefit fraud. As mentioned several times above, this has always been the case, and is nothing to do with RTI.

[norfolk dumpling]

Even if shoots do decide to pay tax @ an assumed 20% they will still be required to register each person under RTI and then comes the problems of differing tax rates and benefits. Very messey.

[ColinF]

Even if shoots do decide to pay tax @ an assumed 20% they will still be required to register each person under RTI and then comes the problems of differing tax rates and benefits. Very messey.

Why? Millions of people have two or more jobs, and still end up paying the correct amount of tax. If the shoot is deducting tax at 20%, any beaters who are retired may be better off as they will probably be able to reclaim the tax paid, subject to the level of their other income etc

[norfolk dumpling]

I'm involved in 6/7 shoots and from discussions with my fellow beaters/guns there doesn't appear to be any individual who has declared their earnings. There is a general presumption for commercial shoots 20% is already deducted - for smaller farm shoots it is £25 in the pack pocket and no questions asked! Now the commercial shoot may deduct 20% but everyone must still declare their earnings (as their full 'tax' identity will be input into RTI) and some, higher tax earners (we have at least one affected) will have underpaid, some will have to reclaim tax and a few may have benefits affected.

 

Trust me this is new territory for many beaters and 2 keeper friends are gearing up for a few dropping out. I feel those of us who are aware need to support those who are unsure for the good of our sport. And BASC, CA etc need to give guidance.

[CharlieT]

Exactly what guidance do you expect BASC & the CA to give other than that which they have already done.

 

The simple fact is that people must obey the law and pay their taxes.

 

If RTI puts an end to tax evasion and benefit fraud then, as far as I'm concerned, bring it on, it's been a long time coming, I'm fed up with paying my dues to subsidise cheats who pretend they didn't know they had to declare all earnings to the dole office or the tax man.

[norfolk dumpling]

I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on this so end of thread for me.

[scotslad]

It's the really big shoots that will struggle, i know a couple who have 80+ days booked already this year and 1 over 100, wot normal person can take that ammount off time off work. They pretty much rely on boys on the dole, not right (but to be fair atleast the boys are gettin up and doing something, not a lot of jobs in that valley) but untill thet start paying a proper wage for a days work and stop relying on the fact that people enjoy it and do it for a day out. It was 1 of the few shoots u had to sign in the book, i think i was the only 1 who actually gave my real name unless the rest really are all named after famous cartoon characters

They are runnig a commercial business, my picking up money (i occasionlly go if they are really desperate and i can fit it in) hardly covers my diesel, usually away for 10-12 hrs with my travelling, wages on commercial shoots will have to go up.

 

I do declare it as i claim all my dogs/clothing exp as SE

[ColinF]

I'm involved in 6/7 shoots and from discussions with my fellow beaters/guns there doesn't appear to be any individual who has declared their earnings. There is a general presumption for commercial shoots 20% is already deducted - for smaller farm shoots it is £25 in the pack pocket and no questions asked! Now the commercial shoot may deduct 20% but everyone must still declare their earnings (as their full 'tax' identity will be input into RTI) and some, higher tax earners (we have at least one affected) will have underpaid, some will have to reclaim tax and a few may have benefits affected.

 

Trust me this is new territory for many beaters and 2 keeper friends are gearing up for a few dropping out. I feel those of us who are aware need to support those who are unsure for the good of our sport. And BASC, CA etc need to give guidance.

There is guidance on the BASC and CA websites, David BASC posted a link to the BASC guidance earlier in this thread. RTI has also been the subject of many articles in all of the shooting magazines. All of the available information agrees on the position for beaters, and that is that income from beating is taxable and should be reported, this has not changed with RTI.

 

There is contradicting advice on how shoots need to make RTI submissions. Some of the guidance says that all shoots need to make full RTI disclosures each time payments are made. I believe that small shoots who don't have other employees, and meet a couple of other conditions won't have to make a full disclosure, but will have to keep records of the payments made for 3 years. I have written to HMRC to get clarification on this point. Commercial and larger shoots who employ gamekeepers etc, will have to make full disclosure of payments.

 

Whether or not the shoot has to report payments is irrelevant to beaters, as any payment they receive is taxable.

[ColinF]

It's the really big shoots that will struggle, i know a couple who have 80+ days booked already this year and 1 over 100, wot normal person can take that ammount off time off work. They pretty much rely on boys on the dole, not right (but to be fair atleast the boys are gettin up and doing something, not a lot of jobs in that valley) but untill thet start paying a proper wage for a days work and stop relying on the fact that people enjoy it and do it for a day out. It was 1 of the few shoots u had to sign in the book, i think i was the only 1 who actually gave my real name unless the rest really are all named after famous cartoon characters

They are runnig a commercial business, my picking up money (i occasionlly go if they are really desperate and i can fit it in) hardly covers my diesel, usually away for 10-12 hrs with my travelling, wages on commercial shoots will have to go up.

 

I do declare it as i claim all my dogs/clothing exp as SE

I think that the amount beaters are paid will increase, and commercial shoots who paid beaters a gross amount in the past will continue to pay the same amount, but it will be net of tax. As you say, they are commercial businesses, and the increased cost will just be passed on to the paying guns.

 

Picking up is different, as HMRC accept that pickers are usually self employed, and as such can claim all their expenses against that income.

Edited August 13, 2013 by ColinF

[norfolk dumpling]

The amount of debate on this topic quite clearly shows there is some confusion here. I still maintain someone, possibly Shooting Times in conjunction with BASC need to put together a tax experts view (cat sat on mat format!) of the problems both shoots and workers will encounter.

 

Personally my rule of thumb is if they take my NI no and address etc I'm going to have declare it. On shoots where cash handed over no questions asked then its in my back pocket.

[chesterse]

If they take Ni number etc. I shall want the minimum wage!

[CharlieT]

Are you really suggesting that BASC or the Shooting Times advise people break the law.

 

The only one confused in this thread is you. All the other posters have been in agreement. Part time earnings, as we all know, no matter where they come from must be declared to HMRC.

 

Since every beater and every shoots circumstance are different it would be impossible and foolhardy for BASC to issue tax advice and for you admit to and recommend tax evasion on an open forum is plain daft.

[ColinF]

Personally my rule of thumb is if they take my NI no and address etc I'm going to have declare it. On shoots where cash handed over no questions asked then its in my back pocket.

Surely, you don't need a tax expert to tell you that income is taxable?

 

It's your choice what you decide to declare to HMRC, but failure to declare income is tax evasion, which will land you in hot water with HMRC if you get caught.

 

It doesn't matter if the shoot take your NI number or not, the income is still taxable......

[al4x]

In reality though it is only taxable if it is traceable. Hence the mention of if shoots take your details declare it if not then its up to you.

[Penelope]

How would this effect payment/benefit in kind? I beat on my dad's walk one stand one and getting a two course meal and a duck flight. No cash transaction made. I assume there will be no impact.

[leeds chimp]

I am still a bit confused with it all

There are so many `what if ` problems with it

[al4x]

There are so many `what if ` problems with it

 

Indeed and for £25 a day that we get its making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill IMHO and as for the benefit in kind well best not to even go down that route whats a beaters day worth? I shot 15 birds last year on ours at the usual rate that would be a fair chunk

[norfolk dumpling]

My suggestion of S/Times involvement was only to use them as a medium for communicating a set of common sense rules for those who are concerned. From what I read above and what ive picked up locally there is some confusion and surely regardless of your own position we do not want our wonderful sport to suffer.

 

It is fairly obvious what HMRC are up to - they are placing the emphasis of disclosure/data collection on the shoot and doubtless at yr end will check against self-assessment forms. This is part of a wider plan - a friend who runs a specialist kitchen business has to use a similar set-up for any sub-contractor they use.

 

As I said before any shoot who asks for my details (address, dob, and NI) I will be declaring my earnings. But my situation at present is simple - I'm currently a 20% tax payer. Others will not be so straightforward.