Beaters Pay and HMRC

[CharlieT]

I would suggest the only above board advice we can give them is to read http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/working/intro/casual.htm

 

But basically as you say, commercial shoots will put payments through the books whereas informal shoots will tend to fund beaters pay out of their back pocket which will be untraceable.

You are right, if you are asked for your NI number you will need to declare the income but it's also worth asking if they have an arrangement in place with HMRC to pay the tax on your behalf and what you are getting in your packet is the net amount after tax.

 

Don't forget that if your wife has any unused "allowance" left, there may be a tax advantage to pretend to be her when supplying NI details.............just don't forget to wear your frock when you sign in !!

[norfolk dumpling]

My wife has just retired and it will be a couple of years before her private pension kicks in so might wear her frock for a while..... She spent a load of dosh at Holkham so owes me a favour or two.

[ColinF]

In reality though it is only taxable if it is traceable.

Please let me know where its says that in the tax legislation...

 

I know what you mean, but that's like saying something is only illegal if you get caught

[ColinF]

I would suggest the only above board advice we can give them is to read http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/working/intro/casual.htm

 

But basically as you say, commercial shoots will put payments through the books whereas informal shoots will tend to fund beaters pay out of their back pocket which will be untraceable.

You are right, if you are asked for your NI number you will need to declare the income but it's also worth asking if they have an arrangement in place with HMRC to pay the tax on your behalf and what you are getting in your packet is the net amount after tax.

 

Don't forget that if your wife has any unused "allowance" left, there may be a tax advantage to pretend to be her when supplying NI details.............just don't forget to wear your frock when you sign in !!

Your link is for the normal rules, there is further guidance specifically for beaters here http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/payerti/employee-starting/special-situations/temps/harvest-casuals.htm

 

How does your arrangement with HMRC work? Don't you need to get the individuals details so that they can get credit for the tax deducted, or does the agreement assume that all your beaters are 20% tax payers?

 

I wouldn't recommend trying to divert your income to your wife by giving the shoot her details, that's fraud and would be worse in the eye's of HMRC than if you just "forgot" to declare the income

[CharlieT]

Thanks for putting up the correct link, as my old headmaster used to write on my report............should try harder.

 

Assume everyone is a 20% taxpayer. Simplest solution all round for us.

 

Oh and please don't try to put Mr Dumpling off cross dressing, I was minded to drive up to Norfolk to watch him sign in for his first days beating resplendent in frock, fishnets and wig.

[norfolk dumpling]

Plus Barbour and Hunters.........

[ColinF]

There is contradicting advice on how shoots need to make RTI submissions. Some of the guidance says that all shoots need to make full RTI disclosures each time payments are made. I believe that small shoots who don't have other employees, and meet a couple of other conditions won't have to make a full disclosure, but will have to keep records of the payments made for 3 years. I have written to HMRC to get clarification on this point. Commercial and larger shoots who employ gamekeepers etc, will have to make full disclosure of payments.

HMRC has confirmed that if your beaters meet all of the following criteria:

 

•are taken on for one day or less, and

•are paid off at the end of that period, and

•have no contract for further employment

 

No tax needs to be deducted from their pay, and as long as each beater is paid less than the Lower Earnings Limit (currently £109 per week) and you have no other employees who are paid above this amount, no report needs to made to HMRC, you just need to keep details of the payments and who they were made to, including NI numbers etc for 3 years.

 

This is good news for small syndicate shoots as they won't have the extra admin of reporting to HMRC each time they pay their beaters.

 

For beaters nothing has changed, the income is taxable.

[leeds chimp]

HMRC has confirmed that if your beaters meet all of the following criteria:

 

are taken on for one day or less, and

are paid off at the end of that period, and

have no contract for further employment

 

No tax needs to be deducted from their pay, and as long as each beater is paid less than the Lower Earnings Limit (currently £109 per week) and you have no other employees who are paid above this amount, no report needs to made to HMRC, you just need to keep details of the payments and who they were made to, including NI numbers etc for 3 years.

 

This is good news for small syndicate shoots as they won't have the extra admin of reporting to HMRC each time they pay their beaters.

 

For beaters nothing has changed, the income is taxable.

Just had an email off the gamekeeper I beat for....

He has been informed that you can't do beating as self employed...... and the amount I/we get paid won't change (£30) so as it would be a second job (technical ly) I will lose 25% of that so thinking now is it actually worth it.....

And he has been told he has to cut his beater and picker up numbers

[chesterse]

It does look like it is hardly worth it! The shoot I go on pays £25 by the time you take 20% off for tax and the cost of diesel etc it's doing it fot the pleasure of it but I don't see why beaters should subsidise shooters!

[norfolk dumpling]

Whilst I agree with this in part you have to balance perks against costs. I know I will have to declare a lot of my beaters wages this year but what is the value of a couple of 200 bird cock days, a few afternoons after pigeon and the social side of our activity? This also does not take into account health gains from walking several miles in beautiful countryside.

 

We must not get despondent as this will only play into the hands of our enemies and you bet there are one or two watching now!

[TIDES EDGE]

We have decided not to pay our beaters & pickers up after discussions with them ,they will get a bacon roll at the start ,soup ,sausage and a pasty + a drink at lunch a brace of birds at the end of the day and another drink Oh ! and 3 days shooting beat one stand one of 100 birds.

Do you think this is ok?

[CharlieT]

We have decided not to pay our beaters & pickers up after discussions with them ,they will get a bacon roll at the start ,soup ,sausage and a pasty + a drink at lunch a brace of birds at the end of the day and another drink Oh ! and 3 days shooting beat one stand one of 100 birds.

Do you think this is ok?

 

Unless your beaters are friends and family members then No, beaters giving up a day of their time to beat for a shoot deserve some reimbursement for their time and expenses.

 

Why should guns who are shooting for their own enjoyment, expect beaters to provide their services for free.

 

The least the guns can do is put their hand in their pocket and provide the beaters with a bit of grub and a few quid in their pocket to cover their out of pocket expenses such as petrol, waterproofs and a little dog food. Without beaters there would be no shooting for the guns.

 

Don't be so ruddy tight.

[Dunkield]

We have decided not to pay our beaters & pickers up after discussions with them ,they will get a bacon roll at the start ,soup ,sausage and a pasty + a drink at lunch a brace of birds at the end of the day and another drink Oh ! and 3 days shooting beat one stand one of 100 birds.

Do you think this is ok?

 

I think that would depend on the size of your shoot and how many days you do.

A lot shoots already provide most or all of the above and pay

[TIDES EDGE]

As I said we did discuss this with most of our beaters and most of them felt for the£20 we used to pay they did not want the hasel of having to fill in tax return forms unless they were self employed so 2 extra days shooting seemed a good idea.

We shoot 12 days and as it is all out of cover crops its easy going

[chesterse]

We have decided not to pay our beaters & pickers up after discussions with them ,they will get a bacon roll at the start ,soup ,sausage and a pasty + a drink at lunch a brace of birds at the end of the day and another drink Oh ! and 3 days shooting beat one stand one of 100 birds.

Do you think this is ok?

Whilst it is true that most beaters are interested in eating and drinking, a fair proportion are not interested in shooting!

What's so difficult about paying an extra 20%?

20% of £25 = £5 x say 10 beaters = £50 per shoot, ie not even the cost of shooting a couple of birds!

[Cockerman59]

So now I have to give up my favourite beating shoot pay £25 tax 40% (don't have a go) that's £10 fuel £20 food £5 so it now costs me £10 to beat there, so 30 days that's cost me £300, I was happy to break even,

[TIDES EDGE]

It was not the cost it was the paper work for both the shoot and the beaters and as luck would have it all most all of them shoot

[norfolk dumpling]

Cocker man (I've got a couple of those) I was a 40% tax payer until I retired - now not so but state pension and a few extra days beating might push me over - its a hard life for pensioners these days.

 

 

From all that I've heard it appears we beaters have to be aware:

 

1) if it is cash no questions asked then no questions asked

2) if you are asked for your address, NI no etc then you must declare to HMRC BUT you may be out of pocket so perks come into play.

 

Personally I find beaters days can be much more fun than a bought day. And as end of season more memorable. Have had a couple of 300 bird days where I got (by chance) more than my % of bag plus fun of wiping eye of landed gentry. What value for that??

[ColinF]

Cocker man (I've got a couple of those) I was a 40% tax payer until I retired - now not so but state pension and a few extra days beating might push me over - its a hard life for pensioners these days.

 

 

From all that I've heard it appears we beaters have to be aware:

 

1) if it is cash no questions asked then no questions asked

2) if you are asked for your address, NI no etc then you must declare to HMRC BUT you may be out of pocket so perks come into play.

 

Personally I find beaters days can be much more fun than a bought day. And as end of season more memorable. Have had a couple of 300 bird days where I got (by chance) more than my % of bag plus fun of wiping eye of landed gentry. What value for that??

 

What beaters need to be aware of is:

 

1) Income from beating has always been taxable. It doesn't matter if it's "no questions asked" or you get asked for your NI number, its still taxable.

 

2) Any shoot which pays beaters, but does not keep full details of the person being paid including full name, address, NI no, DOB etc is breaking the rules.

 

3) Broadly speaking, shoots who don't have full time employees, do not have to report payments made to HMRC. However, they do have to keep records of payments made, including the details above, for 3 years in case HMRC requests them.

 

4) Shoots that have full time employees will have to report payments to HMRC within 7 days of the payment being made.

[Zeus]

Hi

 

Ive given my details to a keeper, at his request.

 

Is there anything as a beater being paid that I would need to do e.g inform HMRC?

[Dunkield]

If the shoot is paying your tax no, but I would get something in writing from them confirming they have offered to do this.

[ColinF]

You don't have to do anything. If the shoot is required to make RTI submissions, they will inform HMRC that you are an employee and provide you with a P60 or P45 at the end of the season/tax year.

 

If its a small shoot, which isn't required to report under RTI, HMRC will not be told that you are an employee of the shoot. However, the shoot will have to keep records for 3 years, and make them available to HMRC if they are requested.

 

As you mentioned a keeper, it's more likely that your shoot is required to make RTI submissions.

Edited September 9, 2013 by ColinF

[Cockerman59]

I am a lttle confused by the last post

I give different shoots my details.

Say I am paid 25 pounds x 20 days Total - 500 pounds

30 pounds x 10 days Total - 300 pounds

25 pounds x 10 days Total - 250 pounds

Total earnings 1050 pounds

Then at the end of the tax year I have to submit a tax return showing these earning.

The tax office will then tell me what tax is payable, I will recieve nothing from the shoots regarding paper work.

Is this not correct

Dave

[ColinF]

I am a lttle confused by the last post

I give different shoots my details.

Say I am paid 25 pounds x 20 days Total - 500 pounds

30 pounds x 10 days Total - 300 pounds

25 pounds x 10 days Total - 250 pounds

Total earnings 1050 pounds

Then at the end of the tax year I have to submit a tax return showing these earning.

The tax office will then tell me what tax is payable, I will recieve nothing from the shoots regarding paper work.

Is this not correct

Dave

 

There are basically two types of shoots as far as RTI goes, broadly that is shoots with full time employees, and those without.

 

The shoots with full time employees have to make RTI submissions and run a full payroll. If the shoots that you beat for are in this category, you will get paper work at the end of the season showing your earnings and any tax deducted. Shoots don't have to deduct tax from beaters pay, but some may choose to.

 

Shoots without full time employees usually won't need to make any RTI submissions and therefore won't give you any paper work, as there isn't any.

 

Either way, the income is taxable and should be reported on your tax return.

[Cockerman59]

So any shoot with a full time employed keeper will give you paper work