TWAG Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) It would be fair to say that at this point in time we should be looking at a united front (This is the singularly most important thing that we all must do) in respect of this potential ban, however , I believe it would also be wrong to ignore the fact that our Self Appointed Governing body BASC has been pretty much complicite in the fact that this potential ban has come as far as it has.(Evidence please) Over the last few years we have heard the statement No evidence No change being used by them on an almost daily basis and repeated following the recent John Swift debacle , however this feels more like a Flag of Convenience rather than anything of substance. (This is a quotation out of context) If we go back to 2007/8 the A.E.W.A. Produced a document under the heading ( Phasing out of the use of Lead shot for hunting in Wetlands ) , involved in the preparation and Drafting of this document was John Harradine ( BASC ) , the document was some 30 pages long , however page 15 / 16 contained the most eye opening elements . Here is a shortened version : It is not enough to convince hunters about the necessity of moving away from lead shot, they need to learn how to use it . Training for this could be provided by the respective countries Hunting Organisations( BASC ). They should be encouraged to try lead substitutes on Clay Grounds prior to use in the field. A Ban on the use of Lead shot for Clay Pigeon Shooting could be a way of forcing hunters to gain experience with Non Toxic loads !. Following this report I have neither seen nor heard of any out right condemnation of these statements by BASC , I could be cynical and say that the only element to benefit from a ban on lead would indeed be the Significant Training Dept operated by BASC , who would no doubt pick up on the Training Of Hunters ! It is therefore my belief that the Ban on Lead was and has been fairly readily accepted by the BASC with possibly an underlying interest .(This is your opinion and it is factually wrong) Edited February 28, 2015 by TWAG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Done - But I still think our efforts should be put into changing the existing law and shoot lead free over wetlands - Not at species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 I will reiterate, as I have done on many posts about lead shot, that BASC have not accepted that lead shot will be banned. As other have said this may be the view of some but it most certainly is not true. Keep criticizing BASC on this issue and putting quotes out of context and ignoring what has really happened over the last 30 years is is pointless and will not achieve anything What is important, and the entire point of this thread is to have a united front on this issue, sign the campaign please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Posted 13 February 2015 - 03:48 PM Yes move, thank you My friends in shooting - BASC has a plan, part of which I have put on the website. There is little more I can say David David it's been over two weeks now since your post on the other thread that was closed for no valid reason. I've heard of the Plan B, is that the plan above, or a different one, either way what is it.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 This thread is about the cross organisational objective, as described on the link within the first post. Lets focus on that. What will happen next will depend on the content of the final LAG report to DEFRA, and DEFRA / FSA's response, both of which will almost certainly be heavily influenced by which part is in power after the general election Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desiato Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 It would be fair to say that at this point in time we should be looking at a united front ([/size]This is the singularly most important thing that we all must do) in respect of this potential ban, however , I believe it would also be wrong to ignore the fact that our Self Appointed Governing body BASC has been pretty much complicite in the fact that this potential ban has come as far as it has.(Evidence please)[/size] Over the last few years we have heard the statement No evidence No change being used by them on an almost daily basis and repeated following the recent John Swift debacle , however this feels more like a Flag of Convenience rather than anything of substance. (This is a quotation out of context) If we go back to 2007/8 the A.E.W.A. Produced a document under the heading ( Phasing out of the use of Lead shot for hunting in Wetlands ) , involved in the preparation and Drafting of this document was John Harradine ( BASC ) , the document was some 30 pages long , however page 15 / 16 contained the most eye opening elements . Here is a shortened version : It is not enough to convince hunters about the necessity of moving away from lead shot, they need to learn how to use it . Training for this could be provided by the respective countries Hunting Organisations( BASC ). They should be encouraged to try lead substitutes on Clay Grounds prior to use in the field. A Ban on the use of Lead shot for Clay Pigeon Shooting could be a way of forcing hunters to gain experience with Non Toxic loads !. Following this report I have neither seen nor heard of any out right condemnation of these statements by BASC , I could be cynical and say that the only element to benefit from a ban on lead would indeed be the Significant Training Dept operated by BASC , who would no doubt pick up on the Training Of Hunters ! It is therefore my belief that the Ban on Lead was and has been fairly readily accepted by the BASC with possibly an underlying interest .(This is your opinion and it is factually wrong) TWAG , your right it is my opinion , but I would love to know what element is out of context and what Element is factually incorrect , you give no explanations ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 Your statement that BASC has accepted a lead ban or been complicit is totally incorrect. None of the shooting organisations have this view. You do not have evidence,just baseless opinion to evidence this. Your unfounded allegation that BASC will gear up for training and thus benefit from a ban is totally incorrect and out of context. What you fail to understand, or choose to ignore, in this context is that those who have to use lead alternatives , such as those who shoot over wetlands (as the report very clearly states is the context of the training point) have needed to adjust their shooting style, all be it marginally, as has been repeatedly pointed out by very experienced shooters on other threads on this forum who use lead alternatives. This is simply because the ballistic properties of lead shot is different to the alternatives. So why would BASC condemn a statement of fact that is clearly evidenced as such by those who regularly use the alternatives? What baffles me is why a few on here regularly want to try and blame BASC for this that and the other, (always incorrect I may add) and ignore that simple and clear fact that ALL the shooting organisations are now working together on this issue with a collegiate approach, and not getting behind this strategy. As said above, the single most important thing we must do now is work and stand together. Anything else simply weakens our joint position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWAG Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 As the old proverb goes, "There's none so blind as those who WILL not see," Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 I'd love to know what all those who are complaining about BASC (non-members presumably) are doing themselves to make sure that lead shot isn't banned or have THEY given up? And what are their shooting organisations doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 TWAG exactly my point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desiato Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 Your statement that BASC has accepted a lead ban or been complicit is totally incorrect.(Purely your opinion ) None of the shooting organisations have this view. ( Are you certain about that )You do not have evidence,just baseless opinion to evidence this. ( How many noted statements by BASC personnel do you require as evidence). Your unfounded allegation that BASC will gear up for training and thus benefit from a ban is totally incorrect and out of context.( There has been a significant programme of training in America for the use of Steel Shot which to some has been extremely lucrative , given close ties with Mr Harradine , would be odd if they did not. What you fail to understand, or choose to ignore, in this context is that those who have to use lead alternatives , such as those who shoot over wetlands (as the report very clearly states is the context of the training point) have needed to adjust their shooting style, all be it marginally, as has been repeatedly pointed out by very experienced shooters on other threads on this forum who use lead alternatives. This is simply because the ballistic properties of lead shot is different to the alternatives. So why would BASC condemn a statement of fact that is clearly evidenced as such by those who regularly use the alternatives?( Evidenced ? No , Opinion yes, as someone fully up to speed with the Ballistic capabilities of all the alternatives to Lead , I would state that it requires somewhat more than a marginal adjustment) What baffles me is why a few on here regularly want to try and blame BASC for this that and the other, (always incorrect I may add) and ignore that simple and clear fact that ALL the shooting organisations are now working together on this issue with a collegiate approach, and not getting behind this strategy.( Well that's good to hear , especially as BASC had to be pressured into inviting the CA onto the LAG in the first place ! ) As said above, the single most important thing we must do now is work and stand together. Anything else simply weakens our joint position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWAG Posted March 2, 2015 Report Share Posted March 2, 2015 "especially as BASC had to be pressured into inviting the CA onto the LAG in the first place !" This is decided by the Secretary of State ensuring that all interests 'hunting conservation' etc are present to produce a balanced report. Unless you can evidence otherwise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 2, 2015 Report Share Posted March 2, 2015 Morning Desiatio Yes I am certain but if you think it will help to save lead shot by trying to prove that BASC is in favour of a ban please explain Given that many thousands of shooters in the UK have had to use lead alternatives for well over a decade, there has not been a perceptible demand for training in their use, so that kind of proves my point! Its an urban myth that BASC were pressured into inviting the CA onto the LAG! The LAG was not and is not a BASC group, so BASC could not bring pressure as you claim. The CA were invited at the same time as everyone else by DEFRA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 Morning Desiatio Yes I am certain but if you think it will help to save lead shot by trying to prove that BASC is in favour of a ban please explain Given that many thousands of shooters in the UK have had to use lead alternatives for well over a decade, there has not been a perceptible demand for training in their use, so that kind of proves my point! Its an urban myth that BASC were pressured into inviting the CA onto the LAG! The LAG was not and is not a BASC group, so BASC could not bring pressure as you claim. The CA were invited at the same time as everyone else by DEFRA So we are all going to have to be re-trained to shoot? The way I read this is, that BASC could be setting up training schools to teach us all how to shoot with steel. Could we end up having to have a BASC certificate of shooting after the training to be able to use steel shot to shoot in the future? As for BASC being pressured into inviting the CA onto the LAG, I do not believe this to be the case, the members of the LAG where hand picked by the chairman, the Minister only signed off on his recommendation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) David BASC - I fail to comprehend why some people pop up on a Forum and almost immediately start getting into BASC's ribs.Almost as if they had a hidden agenda. Perish the thought. :innocent: Edited March 4, 2015 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 David BASC - I fail to comprehend why some people pop up on a Forum and almost immediately start getting into BASC's ribs. Almost as if they had a hidden agenda. Perish the thought. :innocent: perhaps it's because they joined BASC thinking that BASC would protect their shooting??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 I am getting confused , is this the lead shot campaign thread or the BASC bashing thread ? I really don't know how many more times poor old David has to reiterate what BASC's stance is on lead shot , yet continues to have people try and pick it all to bits . At least BASC have the nounce to have a presence of forums like this . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 perhaps it's because they joined BASC thinking that BASC would protect their shooting??? Yes, and that's exactly what they do. Are you a member? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 Yes, and that's exactly what they do. Are you a member? i maybe or i maybe not a member,why aren't they involved with LAG??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 This has been answered so many times that I'm now thinking you're being deliberately obtuse. And well done for avoiding the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 This has been answered so many times that I'm now thinking you're being deliberately obtuse. And well done for avoiding the question. why aren't basc involved with LAG?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 why aren't basc involved with LAG?. So we will take that as a negative - Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 I rest my case. BASC bashing thread - yet again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 This thread is about the joint approach by all the main shooting organisations coming together in a unifying campaign to prevent further restrictions on lead shot. Those who post silly and false claims attacking BASC, or ask questions about the LAG which have been answered numerous times on this forum are deliberately distracting from this very important campaign simply to grind their own personal axe. Lets stick to the point of this thread for the sake of lead and for the sake of shooting. If you genuinely think bashing BASC is going to help anything you are very sadly misguided Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 This thread is about the joint approach by all the main shooting organisations coming together in a unifying campaign to prevent further restrictions on lead shot. Those who post silly and false claims attacking BASC, or ask questions about the LAG which have been answered numerous times on this forum are deliberately distracting from this very important campaign simply to grind their own personal axe. Lets stick to the point of this thread for the sake of lead and for the sake of shooting. If you genuinely think bashing BASC is going to help anything you are very sadly misguided i have not done any BASC bashing,i only asked a question,who is it that is representing BASC on LAG??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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