have BASC shot shooting in the foot?

[Piebob]

It's a long long thread, and I get the compliance message BASC are pushing and have signed up.

 

But I still can't find any evidence of any sort of strategy around this from my representative organisation (BASC). Wait and see what comes out of LAG then do something after that seems to sum it up. Never heard of scenario planning?

 

There have been various proactive ideas throughout the thread from carrying out a magazine survey, carrying out further compliance testing and ensure the results are valid and birds are traceable, carrying out some UK-based research into the harm or otherwise that lead does to 'fowl, push for a change in the English law if that is what members want, etc etc. Will we see any of that activity?

[David BASC]

Yes i have head of scenario planning, and yes it does go on.

 

 

Surveys - very soon as i say most likely starting this season

 

 

UK study of the toxicity of lead to ducks and geese - plenty of peer reviewed papers out there on lead toxicity and water birds, so I am not sure what benefit more will do. But remember LAG are looking at toxicity anyway.

 

 

Asking what members want - English or Scottish system - OK - but as I said you will not get a chance to change in law until compliance is high

 

David

[al4x]

couldn't you just sample another 200 members David and get another 200 ducks sampled and show 100% compliance if we supply the ducks and the completed survey forms

 

seems about as good as the current methodology

[David BASC]

I know you are joking, as of course we would need a statistically viable sample size, which on a membership of 130,000 plus would be over 200 members.

 

 

David

[al4x]

not many though judging by the last one and not many more ducks to come to the conclusion everyone is breaking the law

[David BASC]

So, out of interest Al4x what would be your research solution?

[Kes]

Yes i have head of scenario planning, and yes it does go on.

 

 

Surveys - very soon as i say most likely starting this season

 

 

UK study of the toxicity of lead to ducks and geese - plenty of peer reviewed papers out there on lead toxicity and water birds, so I am not sure what benefit more will do. But remember LAG are looking at toxicity anyway.

 

 

Asking what members want - English or Scottish system - OK - but as I said you will not get a chance to change in law until compliance is high

 

David

David, what are the conclusions of all the reasonably available reports produced on lead and water birds ? Is there an unequivocal and shared conclusion that it might be, could be, definitely is (a problem). If so, what are the characteristics of ingestion? are they common across all studies and so forth - thats some of the research that could be checking the recent past for arguments. A researcher from Uni for the hols could do this for the experience etc and you could have another one doing firearms condition research or other items of interest. I dont see anything in your penultimate sentence that suggests you see my meaning. So I presume BASC feels all the available research is absolutely compatible and reached precisely the same conclusion, therefore compliance is the only and last course?

As for your last sentence my obvious answer is why? -since a change in law could affect substantially the level of compliance. So BASC are advocating a "catch 22" situation as our main line of defence. It is only going one way.

Re your earlier comments, I can and may adapt to a change in the law to ban lead but there are so many unanswered ifs, cartridge alternatives and cost being a rather important first couple, then theres the effect on guns which used lead old and new, antique and ancient. Would lead in bullets follow are are we likely to get subsidised depleted uranium (tongue firmly in cheek)becuase that must be better than lead given the atomic weights.

I have a 'london best gun', old and for a bit of fun - many do, its not like the guy who said "those who can afford it wont notice" and "anyway we should all stick together in the next sentence". Strangely I have been told that only Eley do a purpose -made 2 1/2 game load for the older guns yet there are many of them. Who would benefit if cartridges trebled in price? I am off to buy shares in cartridge manufacturers (on the continent or U.S, because they seem ahead of the game.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Kes

[David BASC]

Please take a look at the AEWA web site for the historical data and the LAG web site – plenty of reading there. The evidence on toxicological effects is clear and under no doubt. Most important in the current context are the papers being reviewed by the LAG.

 

Why can’t the law be changed now? Because DEFRA ,who are responsible, are not minded to do anything under the present administration until they get the final LAG report and review compliance.

 

I have been speaking to cartridge manufactures in the UK as I promised to do, and at least one will load up some 2 ½ steel 5’s and test..what will be the results? As soon as I know you will know.

 

US cartridges, for exmaple, are not constrained to Proof House or CiP...

Edited July 26, 2013 by David BASC

[al4x]

I'd do an online survey of members keep the costs down and publicise it well you could keep it identifiable by having to log into the member section on your website and get the numbers up on usage. That lets the groups affected fill it in as the ones that it affects are likely to fill it in properly

 

Duck wise I would make damned sure the provenance was there, in todays age of traceability of food it just isn't good enough to trawl game dealers websites and order oven ready ducks. Food and game moves all over the country and Europe as you well know and the methodology in that report of saying birds were bought in for instance London so odds were they came from a close radius just is not good enough, it could be Scotland it could be Europe and what you are potentially told on the phone as a customer is often what they think you want to hear. It needs to be done in conjunction with a number of game dealers and you need the ducks as they arrive off the vehicle fresh with a list of where they were collected.

 

we are almost past that point though we are at a point where we need enforcement, it wouldn't even take much a small threat of it and the situation will change overnight on the large duck shoots where this is happening, and they are the ones putting the ducks into dealers. The majority of the shooting population isn't.

 

As for the last bit on toxicology that is the whole point of the Scottish system and why their birdy mob are happy, Compliance is a red herring and being used along with our current law to put all shooters into the same group. Even if compliance with current law was 100% we are still putting lead into wetlands which everything as you say suggests is toxic while we shoot other species over them. It would be naive to assume the birdy mob haven't worked this out and it is of concern they aren't mentioning it which suggests to me they reckon a complete ban is the way forward.

[Kes]

David thanks for the reply but the point is lost if I read the reports and comment on inconsistencies and their meaning in context. I am me and would become another Gunsmoke to be ridiculed perhaps - its BASC who should do this as part of Scenario Planning.

The point about American or Continental cartridge manufacturers is they seem to read the market with greater savvy. No-one of course uses 'foreign' cartridges like Fiocchi or Remington etc., probably because - what you said.

I'm out.

[David BASC]

Al4x

Knowledge of the law and declared compliance with the law - I agree that on line surveys are a great way to gather data, and it could be open to non-members too of course. Although as I have said you only need a relatively small sample compared to the population to generate data that is 99% reliable, I appreciate that people like to see larger numbers!

Ducks – yes provenance is key I agree

 

Kes,

I am unsure what point has been lost?

 

Is it your belief that there is doubt that lead shot, if ingested by ducks and geese, will cause illness and death? This has been researched time and time again and peer review papers are many – I can’t see what a university graduate / undergraduate on summer holidays is going to uncover that hundreds of scientists around the world have missed?

 

Is it your belief that there is no environmental impact of spent lead shot? Well, this is a matter that’s being reviewed, along with human health impacts of spent shot, by the LAG, again peer reviewed papers are plenty, more info on the LAG web site, and if you have questions about that then the best bet is to contact the LAG as they are far better placed to answer questions on their work than I.

 

The USA of course, apart from not having the same speed restrictions that we do, are 10 plus years further into lead restrictions than we are so it’s not surprising they are more advanced in the market in this context.

[wymberley]

Who gives to hoots! I've solved my problem but I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

There's a Churchill easy opening Utility XXV on Sportarm of Dorchester's website in the pre owned section which they've just sold for me.

 

I'm not too upset really, as although it goes against the grain to have to say this, my 1964 AYA XXV Boxlock is the better gun but cost just 1/6th of the Churchill. Still 21/2", but proofed at 900 kgs/cm2 instead of 11/8oz. However, even this will never shoot anything but lead while I own it - no duck nor geese and no water neither. It simply means that I've avoided the distinct possibility that I could well have been well out of pocket.

 

I'm now off to cry in the port.

[spanj]

Gentlemen, If I might be so bold, a question for Eyeglass, wymberley,scully, A14x, kes, spanj et al,

 

Whom amongst you has signed up to, made a purchase of a badge, or donated money to the "Save lead campaign" being run by Gunsmoke?

Not me but then again I've not signed the other pledge (& nor will I). From a personal point of view I'm not hung up on lead as I believe steel has its place (& use it often myself). I'm not keen on the attitude shown by some on here as in the" I only shoot wild fowl so am not bothered if other forms get banned " type, tongue in cheek or not it serves no purpose and spells the end of all our sport. I'd sign a pledge that bound all shooters together for the good of our sport. Wait a minute, isnt that what the sporting organisations are meant to do ?

 

edited to say - Am a member of BASC and NGO and have been for many years.

Edited July 26, 2013 by spanj

[Gordon R]

David of BASC has politely answered a multitude of questions, whilst some seem to avoid answering him.

I honestly don't know where he gets the patience to deal with some, who ramble on and on, making very little sense.

The man is a saint.

[anser2]

Al4x , I have only shot 2 foxes , some years ago with lead no 6 both at about 20 yards and both stone dead. I would expect a load of steel BBB to do the same job and probably better. Steel loads in no 2 do a very good job on the odd hare I shoot at anything between 20 and 40 yards.

Edited July 26, 2013 by anser2

[gunsmoke]

You can find a copy of the Submission to Minister on this web site. Or the PDF is on one of eyeclass's posts.

 

http://ianthegun.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=14988925

[David BASC]

_{So what? it’s already been posted here hasn't it? So why bother posting it again?}

 

_{If you have concerns than yet again I ask if you have taken this up with DEFRA? No? We wonder why…Is it because you can’t be bothered or is it because you know there is no point because there is, in fact, nothing at all wrong with the submission?}

 

_{Given that the UCSW, being the org you were representing at the CLA, are supporting the cross organisational stance on lead shot and the compliance campaign, why were you using their marquee to promote your personal campaign and not the campaign that the UCSW have signed up to?}

 

_{Perhaps you are now starting to realise,, that it’s this puerile attitude and lack of team working causing divisions within the shooting community that’s really going to shoot us in the foot….}

 

 

 

[Glenshooter]

David of BASC has politely answered a multitude of questions, whilst some seem to avoid answering him.

 

I honestly don't know where he gets the patience to deal with some, who ramble on and on, making very little sense.

 

The man is a saint.

 

Well said Gordon.

[Scully]

Gunsmoke, if you continue to simply repeat posts without responding to queries then it appears your claims lack substance.

I'll admit I'm not totally convinced of impartiality in some findings but without irrefutable evidence of a 'done deal' ( which you appear to claim you have knowledge of ) then your claims are empty.

Maybe it's time to put up or shut up?

Edited July 27, 2013 by Scully

[Glenshooter]

_{So what? it’s already been posted here hasn't it? So why bother posting it again?}

 

_{If you have concerns than yet again I ask if you have taken this up with DEFRA? No? We wonder why…Is it because you can’t be bothered or is it because you know there is no point because there is, in fact, nothing at all wrong with the submission?}

 

_{Given that the UCSW, being the org you were representing at the CLA, are supporting the cross organisational stance on lead shot and the compliance campaign, why were you using their marquee to promote your personal campaign and not the campaign that the UCSW have signed up to?}

 

_{Perhaps you are now starting to realise,, that it’s this puerile attitude and lack of team working causing divisions within the shooting community that’s really going to shoot us in the foot….}

 

 

 

David, please switch your computer off and have some time away from 'work'. You deserve it.

 

I think you/BASC are doing a very good job in difficult circmstances.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Glenshooter

[wymberley]

Could I just inject a word of caution regarding this situation. We all know that David is right regarding the specific topic of compliance. We are a democratic oganisation and it will be a disaster if very small minority blow it for the vast majority because they failed to do what was asked of them. After all, as has been pointed out countless times, it's easy enough to do.

 

The point I would make is that some time ago we made the correct, considerate and gentlemanlylike decision to do nothing until the Cullen Report was published. Those of an age will well remember what I'm talking about and will also remember what happened as a result. We got shafted because the government did exactly the opposite. I still worry that yet again inertia on our part will reflect that history will, as ever, repeat itself and we're shafted once more because, again, we sat and waited until a report was published.

[Gordon R]

Scully / wymberley - can't argue with these posts, as they see both sides and don't appear to be written by some oddball who wasn't in the same county at the time nor kicking in some doors.

[Scully]

Scully / wymberley - can't argue with these posts, as they see both sides and don't appear to be written by some oddball who wasn't in the same county at the time nor kicking in some doors.

Despite how it may seem at times I am not a BASC hater;I am a fully paid up member regardless of their downright gutless actions following the Dunblane shootings when the so called 'voice of shooting' came down with a severe bout of laryngitis(cant be bothered to check spelling).

I just want shooting not only to survive,but to thrive,and sometimes get so frustrated at the 'VOICE OF SHOOTING' speaking in whispers.Get out there and rock some ******* boats for crying out loud! I despise and loathe underhanded and deceitful practises,especially from those in positions of authority or who would seek a position of authority.In my everyday dealings with people I am open and honest,and expect the same in return.

If I get a sniff of deceitful practices I'm in there like a shot, much to the disdain of my other half who thinks I should just walk away,but if it effects me or my family,or the 'little man', then I can't.In the past I have come to logger-heads with my local Police on many occassions;avoiding arrest by a whisker more than once,my local education authority,airport officials in not just ths country and too many politicians and local councillors to mention.I have a natural scepticism and suspicion of those who seek positions of authority over others.

BASC have their agenda,and no doubt Gunsmoke/Eyeglass have theirs,and LACS and the WWT etc have theirs also.I don't mind what our opponents oppose,so long as its done with openness and complete honesty,which is why LACS baiting on their website is so rewarding;their claims very rarely stand up to scrutiny and they don't like it when people take their arguments apart bit by bit.

Anyhow,I'm getting off topic.See you all later no doubt.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Scully

[norfolk dumpling]

I find it very sad we have this infighting and any antis - there are no doubt several registered here - must be having a field day with all the ammo we are providing. I work on 4/5 shoots, of all levels (farm, estate & commercial) and have seen both compliance and abuse on all BUT it is a very very poor law that is at fault. Lets all lobby BASC, CLA etc etc to get it changed.

[norfolk dumpling]

I find it very sad we have this infighting and any antis - there are no doubt several registered here - must be having a field day with all the ammo we are providing. I work on 4/5 shoots, of all levels (farm, estate & commercial) and have seen both compliance and abuse on all BUT it is a very very poor law that is at fault. Lets all lobby BASC, CLA etc etc to get it changed.