COuntryfile article on lead shot and ammunition

[Underdog]

Tell me mongral,,,,,have you ever deliberatly speeded whilst riving on the public highway?

 

U.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Underdog

[-Mongrel-]

The question is irrelevant.

 

Come and ask me again when they decide to reduce the speed limits on a public highway due to non compliance with the speed limits.

 

But, I will say that while I can't say never, I don't habitually make the conscious decision to speed, if it does happen it's because I wasn't paying sufficient attention and made a mistake.

 

We're not talking about the occasional mistake here, it's people flouting the law on every duck shoot because they can't be ***** to comply. I don't buy into the cost considerations, people who can afford driven game shoots can afford a few boxes of shells or a dedicated 'Lanber' if they so must shoot the family heirloom at pheasant and partridge.

Edited July 9, 2013 by -Mongrel-

[Underdog]

So is that a definite no you never deliberatly speed?

 

Have you never ever deliberatly broken any law?

 

A yes answer gets you a free halo my friend

 

U.

[wymberley]

You can still shoot steel through an English gun, my father has been shooting gamebore super steel through a charles hellis side lock a webley 700 and a BSA side by side none of them have been afected by the use of steel shot, dispite these guns all being 60+years old. And remember lead is not banned yet and probably wont be if there is a uptake on compliance.

Yep, but you still haven't told me where I can get 21/2" cartridges suitable for 11/8oz proofed guns.

[-Mongrel-]

So is that a definite no you never deliberatly speed?

 

Have you never ever deliberatly broken any law?

 

A yes answer gets you a free halo my friend

 

U.

 

It makes naff all difference what I do or don't regularly do, or whether or not I have EVER broken a law. What I don't do is regularly and repetitively break the same law which, if my memory serves me right, is what this thread boils down to.

 

With regard to the actual question, I can confidently say that I have never broken the law on lead shot despite using both lead and steel and shooting wildfowl. If I can do it so can the other *******. I even have two guns (oh the shock of it) for the different scenarios I shoot and that's just because I can, even if I can't afford to shoot game!

Edited July 9, 2013 by -Mongrel-

[Tim Kelly]

I completely understand the logic of your argument. It is completely logical. unfortunately human beings, especially human being males of a certain age who are indulging in an expensive hobby riddled with tradition and fantasy self images, are not prone to acting logically. Shooting, especially driven shooting, is a hobby where people pay more attention to etiquette and tradition than any daft new rules which would make driven days a logistical nightmare. Imagine if everyone had to bring a spare gun with them for the last drive of the day. Those guns then need to be either carried to each peg or left somewhere securely, not just in the boot of the shooter's car.

 

Logic is easy, if people were only going out for the duck drive, then they know what to bring, easy. A mixed driven day, not so easy. Hardly impossible logically, but in reality, not simple and straightforward.

[B B]

This is strange i dont believe some of the crazy logic from some on here, It illegal that is its against the law to hunt waterfowl in the England with lead shot.

There are no exemtptions for bore sizes or gun age gun construction bank ballance or rank Phill the tyre fitter or prince charles all must obey these laws why anybody who wants to own and use a wall hanger or shell out a few quid on a game shoot should have the gaul to even for a second he has any more right than anyone else to still shoot lead at waterfowl is beond me. Who do you all think you are!

I presume you all have shotgun certificates and has such you should be responsable people dare i say law abiding . If you venture forth on a shoot day and waterfowl come past just dont shoot at it with lead let it fly past just like i hope you would with any other illegal quary species, forget its a duck just treat is as off list when you have lead loaded.

There is nothing difficult about organising that and if you cant get your head around these simple facts perhaps this sport is not for you after all, leave it to us law abiding citizens that way we may just get to still use lead shot in the proper ressponsable way.

[Kes]

This is strange i dont believe some of the crazy logic from some on here, It illegal that is its against the law to hunt waterfowl in the England with lead shot.

There are no exemtptions for bore sizes or gun age gun construction bank ballance or rank Phill the tyre fitter or prince charles all must obey these laws why anybody who wants to own and use a wall hanger or shell out a few quid on a game shoot should have the gaul to even for a second he has any more right than anyone else to still shoot lead at waterfowl is beond me. Who do you all think you are!

I presume you all have shotgun certificates and has such you should be responsable people dare i say law abiding . If you venture forth on a shoot day and waterfowl come past just dont shoot at it with lead let it fly past just like i hope you would with any other illegal quary species, forget its a duck just treat is as off list when you have lead loaded.

There is nothing difficult about organising that and if you cant get your head around these simple facts perhaps this sport is not for you after all, leave it to us law abiding citizens that way we may just get to still use lead shot in the proper ressponsable way.

I have a lot of sympathy with this view but also recognise as said above that a bad law tends to be ignored. A Scottish style law which has common sense behind it leaves no excuses but BB is right, the law is the law, even when it looks like a donkey. Ignoring the law is like committing public suicide for the shooting community as a whole as far as lead is concerned.

How though have we got here so suddenly ?

[David BASC]

To answer your point about ‘how did we get here so suddenly’

 

The issue of compliance has been bubbling away for over 10 years, since the first RSPB survey in England about 2 years after the regs came in, and of course the further survey in 2010.

 

At the end of 2011 WWT started to up their campaign on lead shot and lead shot compliance, minutes of their strategy meeting were leaked and a summary ended up in Shooting Times.

 

Over the last few months it has become clear that there is very likely to be mounting political pressure on the use of lead shot if compliance is not seen to improve.

 

So all the shooting organisations have got together to give one big push on compliance, its happening now of course in the run up to the shooting season.

 

David

[scotslad]

Well said BB

 

Tim where do u constantly see all these driven shooters using SxS shot guns? As u keep on mentioning it.

 

I do a lot off beating or picking up (usually 50+ days a season, albeit mainly in scotland, but majority off guns are english) on all sort's off shoots from large commercial to family and DIY syndicates. I'd say it is novelty now to see a SxS on a day and esp on a driven commercial day, and i don't think i've seen more than 2 guns both shooting SxS for a very long time. And i'm 1 off them, only ever owned and shot SxS and the few others are usually the older generation (i'm still under 40)

The notably eception to this would be driven grouse but even then O&U are becoming more and more common

 

There really is no excuse and u just have to let wot ever fly by as u would anything else off the list, don't really see it as a problem esp on a large commercial day where u're getting ur barrels warm and will have plenty off birds over u, will impact more on a hedge row shooters/diy shoot where u may not get many shots all day and have to work hard for them, the 1 chance u have is a duck and u've got lead in.

 

Possibly this will move some estates away from doing mixed drives in the future?

[al4x]

Difficult, but not quite impossible to disagree with the final phrase.

 

From a selfish point of view - not just me but everyone else who shoots older English guns (which are now suddenly worthless) over land where there's no duck and no water having to pack it in because the cost of suitable NTS is too high - what would a 100 bag pigeon shoot cost at a hit ration of 1 for 2? - because a load of buffoons are even more selfish.

 

I will share hopefully completely the point about the problem receding once we have the LAG report published and any possible adverse recommendations found to be non existent.

 

 

This has one of the more important points in it and really like a few I actually don't trust the LAG or BASC in this matter so all we can do is sit back and see what happens while complying with the law. It may be a totally unfounded miss trust but too much has been rumoured and leaked over the years to have total confidence in what is going on.

[B B]

With respect if you or me agree with the scotish law and would rather England fell in to line with that law or not is al a little accademic, its not going to happen no matter how much we want it. I would dessperatly like to win the lottery but most probably wont, and i would say England adopting the Scotish non tox laws have about the same odds of succses.

Toughen up acept facts the law is what it is we need to cbey it that is all.

And if we trust BASC or LAG or the pope its not relavant, we are dead in the water if we as a shooting comunity do not comply if the retrospective bodies involved can be trusted or not is not important we are sunk without compliance no matter who is advising us.

BASC from my stand point can do no wrong and just what other organisation anyone is going to put forth as out avant guard i can not imagine, they have experienced staff with vested intrests in upholding us and suporting us in our chosen lifestyle because that is what it is a lifestyle. BASC and all the other shooting organisations are advising us to comply with the law this we must do like it or not its the law. I dont shoot lead at waterfowl never have since the ban came in here not even once, so i am totaly clear of any blame should a ban come in on lead alltogether, make sure you can say the same as me, that way if it happens god forbid it you can say i told you so!

[wymberley]

 

 

This has one of the more important points in it and really like a few I actually don't trust the LAG or BASC in this matter so all we can do is sit back and see what happens while complying with the law. It may be a totally unfounded miss trust but too much has been rumoured and leaked over the years to have total confidence in what is going on.

 

With respect if you or me agree with the scotish law and would rather England fell in to line with that law or not is al a little accademic, its not going to happen no matter how much we want it. I would dessperatly like to win the lottery but most probably wont, and i would say England adopting the Scotish non tox laws have about the same odds of succses.

Toughen up acept facts the law is what it is we need to cbey it that is all.

And if we trust BASC or LAG or the pope its not relavant, we are dead in the water if we as a shooting comunity do not comply if the retrospective bodies involved can be trusted or not is not important we are sunk without compliance no matter who is advising us.

BASC from my stand point can do no wrong and just what other organisation anyone is going to put forth as out avant guard i can not imagine, they have experienced staff with vested intrests in upholding us and suporting us in our chosen lifestyle because that is what it is a lifestyle. BASC and all the other shooting organisations are advising us to comply with the law this we must do like it or not its the law. I dont shoot lead at waterfowl never have since the ban came in here not even once, so i am totaly clear of any blame should a ban come in on lead alltogether, make sure you can say the same as me, that way if it happens god forbid it you can say i told you so!

That's not a bad post. Slowing down a bit at the keyboard, proof reading and the use of a dictionary would have made it far easier to read and thus transformed it into a very good one.

 

Now then, where do I get my 21/2" 11/8oz proof iron cartridges?

 

Edit: Don't know where al4x's post came from; didn't mean to quote it.

Edited July 10, 2013 by wymberley

[al4x]

and i think the last bit is what BASC are preparing to do which funnily enough is exactly what the document linked to Shooting Times suggested was the best course of action for them

[David BASC]

Please get your facts right before you put into a public domain an accusation against the UK’s largest shooting organisation.

 

The document you refer to that was leaked to ST…was the report on the minutes of an advisory committee meeting where two members of the committee took a very pessimistic view of the future of lead. Yes that all, just two people, neither of who were elected members of council, not staff members of BASC – big deal!

 

I am frankly sick to the back teeth with you and others coming up with and repeating puerile and baseless accusations that BASC are preparing for a ban on lead or that we have already agreed to a ban on lead.

No we have not done anything of the sort so stop inferring that we have.

 

David

[wymberley]

 

 

This has one of the more important points in it and really like a few I actually don't trust the LAG or BASC in this matter so all we can do is sit back and see what happens while complying with the law. It may be a totally unfounded miss trust but too much has been rumoured and leaked over the years to have total confidence in what is going on.

We're all up in arms regarding the 70% non compliance figures which we dispute. Can you imagine the furore if the other side disputed the c100% 'fowlers' compliance figures.

 

So far our traditions and etiquette have already been mentioned. This was called 'lore': a term which anyone under 50 has probably never heard used. It can be seen from the squabbling above and elsewhere that whatever it's called, it's now largely defunct. I feel sorry for the 'fowlers who collectively have bitten the bullet and got on with it. Out of respect for their feelings, we should be doing the same.

 

The one thought that keeps springing to my mind is, 'divide and conquer'.

 

Like al4x, I sincerely hope that my thoughts are totally unfounded and completely wrong, yet I can't help feeling (and this has nothing to do with BASC) that somehow the non compliance and the LAG report will somehow be inextricably linked and not in our favour. This may just be because by inclination, training and experience I am a devout cynic. Consequently, we really should make every effort to play by the rules, not just out of respect for our 'fowling friends but for our own benefit as well.

 

If we can do this, then 'lore' may yet apply again.

[B B]

 

That's not a bad post. Slowing down a bit at the keyboard, proof reading and the use of a dictionary would have made it far easier to read and thus transformed it into a very good one.

 

Now then, where do I get my 21/2" 11/8oz proof iron cartridges?

 

Edit: Don't know where al4x's post came from; didn't mean to quote it.

No spell check on this phone and if i cough at times on here its all gone, i will try harder SIR!

School report out of the way Steel AMMO for this Old Damascus of yours. Winchester and express did do the 65mm loads years ago but not now, so you need to adapt to survive Sir. save up about 150 quid then get back to me via PMs then we can work out whats your best option to buy an old baikal sxs or hamergun rgat will handle steel at 70mm no problem or get the reloading gear to assemble a safe load for your gun.

[David BASC]

As I have said time and time again, the issue is going to be the coming season(s) where I have no doubt compliance will be tested again, that is THE important issue.

 

So regardless of what has happened in the past, that’s history - its compliance from now onwards that is key.

 

David

[wymberley]

No spell check on this phone and if i cough at times on here its all gone, i will try harder SIR!

School report out of the way Steel AMMO for this Old Damascus of yours. Winchester and express did do the 65mm loads years ago but not now, so you need to adapt to survive Sir. save up about 150 quid then get back to me via PMs then we can work out whats your best option to buy an old baikal sxs or hamergun rgat will handle steel at 70mm no problem or get the reloading gear to assemble a safe load for your gun.

Don't know where you got the idea from but I don't have a damascus barrelled gun.

 

Also think that you missed the point on two counts. Any written word no matter how great the content is will not be read if the potential reader finds it an effort to do so. You wrote a good post which with a little effort, could have been even better. Also, I don't want to shoot NTS. As you yourself said previously, if the compliance rate goes up to an acceptable level, then lead will hopefully remain available under the the existing terms at least.

[al4x]

We're all up in arms regarding the 70% non compliance figures which we dispute. Can you imagine the furore if the other side disputed the c100% 'fowlers' compliance figures.

 

So far our traditions and etiquette have already been mentioned. This was called 'lore': a term which anyone under 50 has probably never heard used. It can be seen from the squabbling above and elsewhere that whatever it's called, it's now largely defunct. I feel sorry for the 'fowlers who collectively have bitten the bullet and got on with it. Out of respect for their feelings, we should be doing the same.

 

The one thought that keeps springing to my mind is, 'divide and conquer'.

 

Like al4x, I sincerely hope that my thoughts are totally unfounded and completely wrong, yet I can't help feeling (and this has nothing to do with BASC) that somehow the non compliance and the LAG report will somehow be inextricably linked and not in our favour. This may just be because by inclination, training and experience I am a devout cynic. Consequently, we really should make every effort to play by the rules, not just out of respect for our 'fowling friends but for our own benefit as well.

 

If we can do this, then 'lore' may yet apply again.

 

Much as David is very against the idea its how many feel compliance is being made into a huge issue despite compliance actually being very high in areas, the questionnaire of BASC members that is being used against us wasn't well thought out. It should have gone to people who shoot wildfowl as they are being represented really badly. A larger questionnaire sent to everyone in wildfowling clubs would have had a drastically different result. BASC should have had the organisations in question sampling ducks from wildfowling as well as dealers, and where dealers were used the provenance needs to be 100% that they came from England not to the best of our knowledge. That isn't hard to do you talk to the dealer and get them off the van fresh once its been collecting from shoots in England. Supermarket bought ducks are worth nothing to the survey as their distribution is so effective that they really could have come from anywhere. This needs a pro active approach to dispute findings against us at every stage and that is what gets me most with paying my subscription, I just can't convince myself the fight is serious.

[B B]

Don't know where you got the idea from but I don't have a damascus barrelled gun.

 

Also think that you missed the point on two counts. Any written word no matter how great the content is will not be read if the potential reader finds it an effort to do so. You wrote a good post which with a little effort, could have been even better. Also, I don't want to shoot NTS. As you yourself said previously, if the compliance rate goes up to an acceptable level, then lead will hopefully remain available under the the existing terms at least.

Look mate i went to St Peters school in Gore SIsland New zealand 11 kids a 70 year old teacher and a walaby hopped in if we left the door open on a hot day i got it wrong i am sorry but i got the we need to comply bit right, thats all you need to worry about.

[David BASC]

Al4x,

 

What are rambling on about?

 

Firstly, I have always maintained that compliance is high in many areas.

 

The BASC survey went to a cross section of members- the key issue was to uncover peoples knowledge, understanding and compliance with the regulations.

 

BASC were not responsible for sampling the ducks. That was the WWT, but all means call them up and quiz them about their sampling and how they checked the ducks were from England

 

Have you bothered to read the report – if you had you would have seen a tiny sample were taken from supermarkets, the vast majority form game dealers.

 

But what difference is that going to make given that compliance is going to be rechecked in the coming seasons?

 

If you don’t think BASC and the other organisations are serious about compliance, then frankly I cannot understand your thought process. |perhaps you are simply being deliberately antagonistic…

 

Complinace now is vital - there is no doubt, anthing else frankly is a distraction.

 

David

Edited July 10, 2013 by David BASC

[Tim Kelly]

Well said BB

 

Tim where do u constantly see all these driven shooters using SxS shot guns? As u keep on mentioning it.

 

I do a lot off beating or picking up (usually 50+ days a season, albeit mainly in scotland, but majority off guns are english) on all sort's off shoots from large commercial to family and DIY syndicates. I'd say it is novelty now to see a SxS on a day and esp on a driven commercial day, and i don't think i've seen more than 2 guns both shooting SxS for a very long time. And i'm 1 off them, only ever owned and shot SxS and the few others are usually the older generation (i'm still under 40)

The notably eception to this would be driven grouse but even then O&U are becoming more and more common

 

There really is no excuse and u just have to let wot ever fly by as u would anything else off the list, don't really see it as a problem esp on a large commercial day where u're getting ur barrels warm and will have plenty off birds over u, will impact more on a hedge row shooters/diy shoot where u may not get many shots all day and have to work hard for them, the 1 chance u have is a duck and u've got lead in.

 

Possibly this will move some estates away from doing mixed drives in the future?

I beat on two shoots and am in a little rough shooting syndicate. One shoot is about 40% SXS the other probably 60% and our syndicate is at least 50%, the walking guns, with the dogs are nearly all SXS users as it's just a better configuration for rough shooting. I got invited for a day driven shooting a couple of years ago and it was 80% SXS and invited walked up grouse shooting and it was 100%.

 

Me, I use a sleeved english non ejector for all my rough shooting and most driven. I have a 32" beretta which I use for clays and sometimes driven shooting or pigeon shooting and a Maxus I use for ducks geese and pigeons. The way I look at it is that each type of gun has a perfect design for one type of shooting, but flaws for another.

[wymberley]

Look mate i went to St Peters school in Gore SIsland New zealand 11 kids a 70 year old teacher and a walaby hopped in if we left the door open on a hot day i got it wrong i am sorry but i got the we need to comply bit right, thats all you need to worry about.

okpointtakennotetoselfnomorecomplimentstobbhe'sthefirstblokethati'veheardofthatactuallyhadshootinlessonsintheclassroomthatschoolinenglandwouldhavebeencalledeton

 

Edit: Grammar

Edited July 10, 2013 by wymberley

[al4x]

Its how you demonstrate compliance though David, sending out questionnaires to people who don't shoot duck is going to give rise to answers by people who aren't bothered or even in cases know the requirements. The simple facts are those against lead are doing the research and it isn't being countered. That is my main issue I'd like to see something done to demonstrate how high compliance actually is and I think you are doing wildfowlers a diss service by not finding a way of demonstrating that they pretty much all are using non toxic alternatives but as their game isn't put into dealers they are being discounted alltogether. They are the ones the WWT are bothered about most and are generally shooting in the areas of interest, lots of the areas are public access surely it could be organised with clubs to perform spot checks on members etc with the WWT and the likes in tow. Being pro active to demonstrate compliance has to be the way forward when you can say xyz number of hundred spot checks were performed by the WWT and BASC and you found no lead cartridges being used it has to help the argument.

 

But to take the latter part of your post David what is BASC doing to test compliance this coming season? you intimate it is being re checked but by who