COuntryfile article on lead shot and ammunition

[-Mongrel-]

Cost is the main problem, the law is the second ...

 

As I said earlier, when you're paying £500+ a day to shoot, I suspect you can afford a few boxes of non toxic. Even if you're do things on a 'cheap' working mans syndicate it's still what a couple of grand a season? Makes 1 or even 200 non toxic carts seem a drop in the ocean.

Edited July 7, 2013 by -Mongrel-

[Kes]

 

As I said earlier, when you're paying £500+ a day to shoot, I suspect you can afford a few boxes of non toxic. Even if you're do things on a 'cheap' working mans syndicate it's still what a couple of grand a season? Makes 1 or even 200 non toxic carts seem a drop in the ocean.

Not the most critical issue but v important - anticipating a duck on a game drive is. We all know its not possible to change carts - unless its a duck drive, its perhaps best just to not shoot and let your neighbour (who hasnt signed the pledge) enjoy the moment !!!!

[B B]

Steel works in fact it works fine, but you have to reload to get its full pottential, few can be bothered to do this, the biggest threat to steel is the CIPs restrictions on its performance if we as a nation simply adopted the USA SAMI rules for steel we could at least get acces to factory steel that delivered performance close what its capable of doing off the shelf, thus making it more acceptable to more people.

[wymberley]

Note i said vertualy every gun if not steel safe use bismuth.

Thanks for your help. As a pensioner not much younger than my guns is this bismuth stuff economically priced at a level with the iron shot as cost was decreed as one of the criteria for the use/introduction of NTS? I think virtually and the tens of thousands of the older guns currently in use is a contradiction in terms (with apologies to Groucho Marx

[B B]

Thanks for your help. As a pensioner not much younger than my guns is this bismuth stuff economically priced at a level with the iron shot as cost was decreed as one of the criteria for the use/introduction of NTS? I think virtually and the tens of thousands of the older guns currently in use is a contradiction in terms (with apologies to Groucho Marx

Sorry no good news there i am afraid when non tox came in the remit as i remember it was a viable allternativeor alternatives to lead. I assumed both in performance price and availability in long term adoption, But sadly the them allternatives went through the roof on price, and even the availability, in the first season of use i found it hard to get Bismuth ITM and even steel some times so even then the viability was a little questionable im my experience.

Lead is toxic we cant get away from this if we like it or not. Cost is of no consequence now you pay what you must in todays climate and accept the expenditure gracefully.

[B B]

Perhaps rather than chewing over the fat of the countryfile programe it would be more productive if we could petition the proof house here perhaps with BASCs support who knows, to drop the CIP steel rules which are volentry anyway, and at least adopt the USA SAMI steel rules and leave the way more open for importers producers of steel shot ammunition to market/ develop the higher performance steel shot loads available to all American and many other countries waterfowlers i have used available commercial steel ammo in the states its like nothing we can buy over here, we must load it ourselves here to get near it. If we could get the american steel here i think a lot of the rebel lead users would see the true pottential of steel and simply use it by choice. Why we cling to the CIP i wil never know.

Edited July 7, 2013 by B B

[Tim Kelly]

That's not going to do anything to overcome the issue with steel and game guns, which is the problem that causes the issue at hand. Far more sensible and pragmatic would be to change the rules to demand non lead over wetlands and not as a blanket ducks and geese ruling. Even then, I absolutely don't believe lead is causing an issue to birds in many places at all.

[motty]

Cost is the main problem, the law is the second - lead hits harder than steel and allows you maybe 10 extra yards. I have signed up to the pledge but the law should be changed to facilitate full compliance. Of course, eventually bismuth will be as cheap as lead and hevi-shot, even tungsten matrix. If there was ever a 'Holy Grail' of shooting its a cheap, effective non-toxic shot. Just MHO

No it won't.

[webber]

When a law is a bad law people tend to disregard it.

 

Do we know what the statistics are for duck shot north of the border in Scotland where the law on lead shot makes rather more sense?

 

webber

[webber]

Bismuth will NEVER be in the same price bracket as lead.

 

As far as I'm aware Gamebore have ceased production of Tungsten Matrix cartridges due to the cost of Tungsten.

 

I have some TM cartridges for sale, please PM if you are interested.

 

webber

[scotslad]

When was the last time u were on a commercal shoot and the majority of guns were shooting SxS?

 

I'm not fortunate enough to take days commercial shooting but do a lot off beating/picking up, I'd say it is a novelty now to see a gun shooting a SxS on a driven pheasant day (apart from on the grouse where they still are very popular) . In fact i could probably count the number of SxS's I see on 1 hand in a season. Even on the local diy syndicates the vast majority of guns shoot with O/U's most off which will be proofed for steel.

 

So there is absolutely no excuse for most folk, most guns are capable off handling steel, and if ur lucky enough to own a purdey u could probably either afford Bismoth etc or even a cheap 2nd hand O/U for duck drives, and as others have said if ur paying £30+ per bird i don't know how u can moan about price off a cartridge, no ones forcing u to shoot at duck!

 

My mate is a wildfowler and now shoot's steel in preference to lead on a normal shoot day. Far prefers it and he can shoot and kill game cleanly. Me and him were picking up ducks 1 morning flight for the guns (but allowed to shoot too, in scotland) he was bringing down 2 or 3 ducks out of every group and i wasn't even lifting my gun to them as thought they were to high, or they were too high for me anyway!

And i was using lead for more about how good a shot u actually are and putting it in the right place than wot's in the shot, ie getting in front and putting shot inabout head area

[Kes]

When was the last time u were on a commercal shoot and the majority of guns were shooting SxS?

 

I'm not fortunate enough to take days commercial shooting but do a lot off beating/picking up, I'd say it is a novelty now to see a gun shooting a SxS on a driven pheasant day (apart from on the grouse where they still are very popular) . In fact i could probably count the number of SxS's I see on 1 hand in a season. Even on the local diy syndicates the vast majority of guns shoot with O/U's most off which will be proofed for steel.

 

So there is absolutely no excuse for most folk, most guns are capable off handling steel, and if ur lucky enough to own a purdey u could probably either afford Bismoth etc or even a cheap 2nd hand O/U for duck drives, and as others have said if ur paying £30+ per bird i don't know how u can moan about price off a cartridge, no ones forcing u to shoot at duck!

 

My mate is a wildfowler and now shoot's steel in preference to lead on a normal shoot day. Far prefers it and he can shoot and kill game cleanly. Me and him were picking up ducks 1 morning flight for the guns (but allowed to shoot too, in scotland) he was bringing down 2 or 3 ducks out of every group and i wasn't even lifting my gun to them as thought they were to high, or they were too high for me anyway!

And i was using lead for more about how good a shot u actually are and putting it in the right place than wot's in the shot, ie getting in front and putting shot inabout head area

Sorry, I disagree - I'm not a poor shot and have shot birds with lead and steel - plenty. Of the birds I have shot lead was consistently better, steel can wound. Bismuth used to 'ball' on firing if the shot was old. I very much rated tungsten matrix but when I stopped using it , it was nearly 4 times the price of lead. I havent used the best steel carts from the US, just those which have been and are currently available to shoot in the UK.

I also have a problem with flagging up a problem to which there is only a second rate solution and where has the 'there's no evidence lead is damaging' gone? I would like a strong confirmation lead is deadly to wildlife (waterfowl) even though I have signed the pledge - feels like the truth has got lost here to save faces in the shooting world.

[scotslad]

He homeloads his steel shells say's u really have to push it a bit faster. 2 or 3 season ago on keepers day he changed back to lead and couldn't hit anything the first day as he was used to giving lead for the faster steel shot.

 

There is evidence out there, there is plenty off it. Not all off it is relevant and some off it will be slightly skewed/bad science but it is definately there (Sure if u look up LAG or BASC websites could tell where to read up on it). I'm slighlty out off touch with it now and a lot of it is from foriegn sources too. basically the problem is in some cases waterfowl actually target the pellets thinking there food items (seed pods, grain etc) so over time end up with crops full of lead shot.

 

I have never heard if anyone has done research into wot happens with the steel shot, waterfowl may still ingest it (althou the pellet size diffence may help/make it worse?) and it will still become stuck in crop, while it may not be toxic, it is more the fact that no room for food so will starve which was also the case with lead, i think the birds were more bothered by the lead in the crop starving than by any lead in blood

[al4x]

 

 

There is evidence out there, there is plenty off it. Not all off it is relevant and some off it will be slightly skewed/bad science but it is definately there (Sure if u look up LAG or BASC websites could tell where to read up on it). I'm slighlty out off touch with it now and a lot of it is from foriegn sources too. basically the problem is in some cases waterfowl actually target the pellets thinking there food items (seed pods, grain etc) so over time end up with crops full of lead shot.

 

 

My only issue with this is if it is genuinely the case why on earth do we have the situation inland here where we can shoot pheasants over the same wetlands with lead and then have to use non toxic for ducks. We have a couple of ponds where the duck are in the minority and you do other drives after towards them so obviously the amount you are cutting down by sticking to the law is 20% or less. I've had this discussion years back with Davidbasc and he was concerned if the law was changed it would affect a lot of game shooting ground where he shoots, well if its poisoning wildfowl that is the way it should be. If however it isn't then this is rather a lot of noise about nothing, what I would like to see is some idea of how many birds are still showing high lead levels and signs of poisoning as that is the crux of the matter.

[B B]

Lead as gone for waterfowl its not coming back, if you have not took this onboard yet the quicker you accept this the better for all concerned. Those that want to shoot damascus barreled antiques fine shoot them with Bismuth or create a wildfowling reenactment society perhaps but we need to move on the old steel scratching barrels and wounding waterfowl needlessly wont wash anymore. Take some time to get used to shooting steel dare i say it buy a gun if all you own came out of london in 1854 buy any Baikal they all have chrome bores and can handle steel so there is no excuse you cant afford to buy a steel compatable gun.

[hifly]

This topic reminds me of the a bloke in a gunsmiths winging about the effectivness of steel shot and how rubbish it was, no use at all was his words but he was not prepared to have 36 grams of number 3 fired at his landrover from 50 yards to see just how rubbish they were.

I have used steel since the ban was introduced and kill as many birds now as before just have to adjust a bit with shot size. I load my own goose shells with 5mm steel and that will drop anything I wish to shot at on the foreshore.

I am also a Keeper and make sure that the guns who shot on our estate use non-toxic for all wildfowl, but I am afraid that a lot of shoots don't ! so I think it is a case of when and not if we get banned from using lead, you will then see steel loads come on in leaps and bounds.

When the ban came in for shooting wildfowl with lead it was the thin end of the wedge, all I am suprised at is it has taken this long before they got round to the rest of shooting

• Quote
• MultiQuote
• Edit
• Report

[wymberley]

To revert to the Subject:

 

I would imagine that to a man, every BASC member is of the opinion that the English legislation on NTS is a shambles at best. Yet (and I appreciate that this was a pre-recorded programme so what is transmitted is dependent upon the whim of the editor) our representative body failed to make this point.

 

It is pointless crying over spilt milk so help avoid any future incident where someone like the Dee wildfowler might feel inclined to shed a tear, perhaps BASC could re-introduce the HFO - type of thing - system for nominated members of the larger wildfowling associations.

 

Now the hard nosed bit - judging by the ease with which the guy plucked the lead shot from the building roof, my background is such that for such an occurrence with the severe consequences as detailed, should someone have felt inclined to press charges, I would have been found guilty of cruelty to animals on the grounds that I failed to carry out any prior investigation to ensure the well being of my animals.

 

As a result and as said, we didn't come out of that smelling of roses.

[Redgum]

Back to the actual programme, I felt it was another massive knock on shooting in general, the chaps ducks that were all dying were on farm land not wetlands. Made it sound that lead shot just rained down from the clouds on all of us,making reference to hundreds of shot in the chaps gutters. The ground must have been an old skeet ground for god sake.

Farm land around the country must hold many thousands of tonnes of lead and it must have health risks with lead being taken in by birds and plants but how does that compare with the many of millions of tonnes of more toxic stuff pumped into the environment from vehicles, bet the presenter and the camera crew didnt walk to the location. It is what it is but Countryfile, as much as I like watching Julia's rear, does get up my nose at times, how about a little countryside support,maybe Adam hacking in desperation at a badger as his herd goes down the pan with TB and Julia doing another series of kill it with lead, cook it, eat it, naked.

[David BASC]

What were positive were the comments from WWT that if compliance was seen to be going in the right direction they see no need for a ban.

 

Even the farmer who has lost his ducks said he had no problem with shooters or shooting.

 

At least twice the presenter said shooting was an important part of the countryside.

 

Covering a couple of other points raised, firstly I can’t see how bismuth is ever going to cost the same as lead – it’s an issue of raw material and manufacturing costs.

 

Many shooters use steel perfectly well, and many threads on here will demonstrate, but steel does perform differently to lead, so we need to adjust our shooting accordingly

 

As to the point that we can’t predict if a duck is coming over on a pheasant drive, well I have always found that an odd argument – just because it’s there does not mean you have to shoot at it!

 

If blackbirds come over with partridges we don’t shoot the blackbirds, if in September on a partridge day we see some pheasants coming through the line we don’t shoot the pheasants.

 

So if on a pheasant drive ducks come through and you have lead in, don’t shoot the ducks! If it’s a duck drive then put in no lead cartridges – simple really

 

Coming back to the programme – it would be wrong for BASC or any other shooting organisation to try and defend the issue of non-compliance by running with the argument that the law is daft, after all as I have said able it’s easy enough to comply…

 

I understand that the farm land in question has been grazed for ages by horses with no problems, but when the ducks got on they would paddle down the grass and any so spent lead would be exposed, it’s our understanding there is a clay ground next door and it seems they have not got their fallout zones quite correct! – I will check this.

 

 

 

 

 

[al4x]

 

As to the point that we can’t predict if a duck is coming over on a pheasant drive, well I have always found that an odd argument – just because it’s there does not mean you have to shoot at it!

 

If blackbirds come over with partridges we don’t shoot the blackbirds, if in September on a partridge day we see some pheasants coming through the line we don’t shoot the pheasants.

 

So if on a pheasant drive ducks come through and you have lead in, don’t shoot the ducks! If it’s a duck drive then put in no lead cartridges – simple really

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and this helps instances of poisoning ducks how exactly?

[David BASC]

As you know Al4x- the thrust of the programme was about compliance with the current laws, and saying its hard to comply with the law just because a duck may come through on a pheasant drive is not a good reason not to comply.

 

 

Over and above this of course shooters can also self-regulate to make sure their shot does not go out of their boundary, and somein England and Wales may even choose to go further and choose not to drop shot onto any wetland... do you?

 

David

[wymberley]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Coming back to the programme – it would be wrong for BASC or any other shooting organisation to try and defend the issue of non-compliance by running with the argument that the law is daft, after all as I have said able it’s easy enough to comply…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly. BUT and it's a BIG BUT provided the proviso that the law should be obeyed is added, if our representative body is not going to take the opportunity to explain to the general public that the law on this is bad, who else is going to? In failing to do so, any association has failed their members.

 

Now, on a more positive note, how about the idea of some media interview techniques training for nominated people from the larger wildfowling clubs/associations?

[David BASC]

Claiming the law is bad and thats why there is evidence of high levels of non compliance over a decade after the law came in could have come over very badly indeed - and thats why this tack was not used

 

Point 2 - well made!

[wymberley]

Claiming the law is bad and thats why there is evidence of high levels of non compliance over a decade after the law came in could have come over very badly indeed - and thats why this tack was not used

 

Point 2 - well made!

So, as this was not done 10 years ago and is still not done now, Joe Public remain totally unaware that legislation introduced on their behalf 10 years ago has failed miserably and nothing is being done about it when the answer in part lies readily available north of the border. Are you saying that the situation could have been made worse? I don't see how - and two wrongs don't make a right.

[al4x]

So, as this was not done 10 years ago and is still not done now, Joe Public remain totally unaware that legislation introduced on their behalf 10 years ago has failed miserably and nothing is being done about it when the answer in part lies readily available north of the border. Are you saying that the situation could have been made worse? I don't see how - and two wrongs don't make a right.

 

 

BASC has always been against the scottish setup from what David has posted over the years I don't know why, its a fundamental part of the alleged problem. What you can say is on most inland shoots it means lead still goes in their ponds and wetlands with most having a duck drive thats surrounded by pheasant drives where its entirely legal to keep pumping lead in. Its a bad law and the focus is being taken away from that due to the bickering over compliance with everyone too "scared" to try and correct it or due to some other hidden agenda. I've never trusted BASC's stance as it just doesn't make sense, Scotland the measures are logical and in theory compliance is high and its never mentioned. They have a law where you can't just test a couple of ducks and make things up from there, everyone seems happy.