Young underkeepers with zero respect

[-Mongrel-]

In a word no there are not enough good underkeepers out there and I lay the blame entirely at the hands of the colleges three years in a class room does not make you a keeper yet they leave college and think they are headkeeper material it is my opinion that they are fed false promise in respect of job opportunity and given a rose tinted insight into the industry in order to bolster course attendance, I hear often of lads on these courses who have never even beat for a day let alone seen a release pen I'm sure they leave with good grades but in the real world that means nothing.

I firmly beleive that the shooting industry needs to realise that keepers need an apprenticeship with one day a week at college to learn the legislation etc and gain the machinery certs they may need.the place to learn is out in the field by observation and hands on not read from tales of old poachers and other such rose tinted fairytales

 

The above stands for many 'trades' to be honest. The youngsters of today don't want to work for a living if they can help it, and if they do have to work then it's all about maximum wage for minimum effort!

 

Why go to all the effort of working hard four+ days a week, college on the fifth and all for barely more than dole money! They have no vision of the time when they would reap the benefits. It is the same with our plumbing apprentices and most other apprentices I hear of.

 

There are exceptions to the rule, but they are now the exceptions rather than the rule.

[deaquire]

 

The above stands for many 'trades' to be honest. The youngsters of today don't want to work for a living if they can help it, and if they do have to work then it's all about maximum wage for minimum effort!

 

Why go to all the effort of working hard four+ days a week, college on the fifth and all for barely more than dole money! They have no vision of the time when they would reap the benefits. It is the same with our plumbing apprentices and most other apprentices I hear of.

 

There are exceptions to the rule, but they are now the exceptions rather than the rule.

 

Apprenticeships are a joke though. Unless you've the foresight to do one when you're 16 and get paid for being at college (bonus). How is an 18+ year old supposed to live on £100 a week?

I definitely feel that, across the board, if people my age were taught to respect their elders a little more, that they would have more respect for people in general, including women. If they're not taught respect then how can they know any different? All said and done, it was disgusting and is irrelevant of the acts of anybody else - past or present - and I don't see how it should be compared to anything else.

 

A more manly thing to do would have been to approach her, remark on her most enviable features that women for miles around would kill to possess for just a day, then invite her round the back for a quickie.

[Cranfield]

Why even comment that these young men were "underkeepers" ?

 

This story could have applied to any group of young men, except probably trainee Shaolin Monks.

Pubs near barracks and naval bases have had this behaviour from squaddies and ratings for generations and elsewhere it would just be the local yobs.

 

Is it right ?

I don't think so, but to single out these individuals as being "underkeepers", as if they are some sort of higher beings, is ridiculous.

[old rooster]

 

Apprenticeships are a joke though. Unless you've the foresight to do one when you're 16 and get paid for being at college (bonus). How is an 18+ year old supposed to live on £100 a week?

I definitely feel that, across the board, if people my age were taught to respect their elders a little more, that they would have more respect for people in general, including women. If they're not taught respect then how can they know any different? All said and done, it was disgusting and is irrelevant of the acts of anybody else - past or present - and I don't see how it should be compared to anything else.

 

A more manly thing to do would have been to approach her, remark on her most enviable features that women for miles around would kill to possess for just a day, then invite her round the back for a quickie.

 

We did it when we were kids but then we didn't own brand new cars (most of us had motorcycles or pushbikes) I think we got about a fiver a week and lived at home until we could afford to go and get a place of our own., From day one at work a part of the paypacket went to Ma although it in no way represented the costs incurred to keep us, it did however instill the concept of paying your way in life. I don't think any of us felt hard done by at how the system worked although I do remember feeling a bit miffed at putting right the screw ups of some supposedly excellent London toolmakers while I was still serving my apprenticeship on about half the money they were getting. Parents weren't hell bent ion getting shut of their offspring so it all worked reasonably well by and large. Trouble is that these days everybody feels that from the age of 18 upwards they should be having a champagne lifestyle rather than having to work darn hard and scrimp and scrape to get going in the big bad world. We started out with second hand furniture as and when we could afford it and built up from that.

 

 

I know it sounds like old bloke speak but it did work and the last line of the quoted post was normal way off addressing that situation rather than a loud mouthed load of abuse. I reckon it was probably more successful as well! LOL

[deaquire]

Why even comment that these young men were "underkeepers" ?

 

This story could have applied to any group of young men, except probably trainee Shaolin Monks.

Pubs near barracks and naval bases have had this behaviour from squaddies and ratings for generations and elsewhere it would just be the local yobs.

 

Is it right ?

I don't think so, but to single out these individuals as being "underkeepers", as if they are some sort of higher beings, is ridiculous.

 

Higher beings? No. Role models to children? Most definitely. Whether you agree, or disagree with shooting, they are recognisable figures of society and should behave as such.

 

This is a shooting forum and under keepers are heavily involved in shooting and land management. They represent large country estates, estates which help give the UK an identity and provide thousands of jobs in a time-honoured tradition that receives enough negative press without childish adults adding to it. It is important that they act with responsibility and decorum when representing their employer and the estates that we rely on.

 

Were I on a forum for members of the armed forces, it may well have been irrelevant. However, given the relevance of the topic and the forum on which I posted, I felt it poignant to point out their vocation. Had I not mentioned their job title, it would indeed have been completely out of context.

 

I agree with you rooster, the nicer things in life are earned, not given. However, in many organisations apprentices are exploited, doing more work than the full time staff with less than half of the wage and no guarantee of employment at the end of it.

[Bitfitter]

Interesting the opinions on apprenticeships perhaps a different view is, 3 years at college at a stagering cost, no real take on the job requirements (this is evident by the number of college leavers who only ever last 1 season and can't manage the demands of the job) and no guarantee of job placement at the end of the course compared to real hands on experience, a wage, the opportunity to show potential employer's your worth and an opportunity to find if your expectations of the job are real or imagined I agree there is still no guarantee of a position at the end of an apprenticeship but at least the candidate would know if they had made the right career choice.

[Cranfield]

 

Higher beings? No. Role models to children? Most definitely. Whether you agree, or disagree with shooting, they are recognisable figures of society and should behave as such.

 

This is a shooting forum and under keepers are heavily involved in shooting and land management. They represent large country estates, estates which help give the UK an identity and provide thousands of jobs in a time-honoured tradition that receives enough negative press without childish adults adding to it. It is important that they act with responsibility and decorum when representing their employer and the estates that we rely on.

 

Were I on a forum for members of the armed forces, it may well have been irrelevant. However, given the relevance of the topic and the forum on which I posted, I felt it poignant to point out their vocation. Had I not mentioned their job title, it would indeed have been completely out of context.

 

 

I would imagine that 99% of the general public, including children, would not recognise an underkeeper if they fell over one and I really don't believe they are "recognisable figures of society".

 

I know this is a shooting Forum.

 

"They represent large country estates, estates which help give the UK an identity and provide thousands of jobs in a time-honoured tradition that receives enough negative press without childish adults adding to it. It is important that they act with responsibility and decorum when representing their employer and the estates that we rely on.

 

I think this statement may have been well made in Victorian times, but the content is a bit dated in the year 2013.

 

I have voiced my opinion, I suggest we agree to disagree.

[deaquire]

 

 

I would imagine that 99% of the general public, including children, would not recognise an underkeeper if they fell over one and I really don't believe they are "recognisable figures of society".

 

 

 

If an under keeper is dressed in all their finery, you know that they've something to do with the shooting community, no? Better to represent it well than cast negativity over the entirety. Indeed, you have voiced your opinion.

Edited September 18, 2013 by deaquire

[Fatcatsplat]

oh come on please.....

I have dated and gone out with many bar maids and they are use to the banter....

Its lads having a laugh ....

Just because they are in shoot gear does that really make them any different to any other of the lads in there ....

 

God help you if you heard the things that were said at the rugby club or the lap dancing bars

 

I agree - It ain't right, but it is part of the job and bar maids suffer it ad nauseum

 

 

 

Whilst you are wearing a uniform, you are representing your employer. If a child is abused, does it make it OK because it happens all the time? Your comment is so beyond ignorant it's unbelievable.

Oh dear - Really? He said they behaved like rude idiots, not paedophiles - Get a grip man!!

Edited September 18, 2013 by Fatcatsplat

[-Mongrel-]

I would imagine that 99% of the general public, including children, would not recognise an underkeeper if they fell over one and I really don't believe they are "recognisable figures of society".

 

 

I have to disagree there. At the very least, most people would recognise a gamekeeper as being that. There is enough in the press, literature and on TV to ensure it. It may not be an accurate representation but the imagery is there.

 

As for them being singled out being 'ridiculous'. Hang on, we've just had a 10 pager on the tradition and pomp and circumstance of the game shoot. Would they be able to behave like this at the shoot? Of course not! While they are still in uniform, IMO they are still representing the Estate and industry and as such should behave as they would while still at work.

Would you forgive a Policeman for misbehaving while in uniform although his shift has ended?

Edited September 18, 2013 by -Mongrel-

[leeds chimp]

A copper would not have their uniform on....

 

Just think you gone a bit OTT

[Cranfield]

 

I have to disagree there. At the very least, most people would recognise a gamekeeper as being that. There is enough in the press, literature and on TV to ensure it. It may not be an accurate representation but the imagery is there.

 

As for them being singled out being 'ridiculous'. Hang on, we've just had a 10 pager on the tradition and pomp and circumstance of the game shoot. Would they be able to behave like this at the shoot? Of course not! While they are still in uniform, IMO they are still representing the Estate and industry and as such should behave as they would while still at work.

Would you forgive a Policeman for misbehaving while in uniform although his shift has ended?

Where I live its not unusual for people to be in the Pub in tweeds, gaiters and boots, none are Gamekeepers, just country people.

 

I doubt if 99% of the general public, or children, know what goes on at a Game Shoot, or particularly care.

 

 

I think there is a lot of difference between an Underkeeper and a Policeman.

Why not use a Bus Driver as an example ?

Would I think less of all Bus Drivers and refuse to travel by Bus, if I saw one in uniform, off duty, misbehaving ?

The answer is "No".

Its the individual, not the "uniform".

 

I think too many people are unduly sensitive about what they think people's opinion is of shooting and those associated with it.

[leeds chimp]

Where I live its not unusual for people to be in the Pub in tweeds, gaiters and boots, none are Gamekeepers, just country people.

 

I doubt if 99% of the general public, or children, know what goes on at a Game Shoot, or particularly care.

 

 

I think there is a lot of difference between an Underkeeper and a Policeman.

Why not use a Bus Driver as an example ?

Would I think less of all Bus Drivers and refuse to travel by Bus, if I saw one in uniform, off duty, misbehaving ?

The answer is "No".

Its the individual, not the "uniform".

 

I think too many people are unduly sensitive about what they think people's opinion is of shooting and those associated with it.

spot on

[deaquire]

Where I live its not unusual for people to be in the Pub in tweeds, gaiters and boots, none are Gamekeepers, just country people.

 

I doubt if 99% of the general public, or children, know what goes on at a Game Shoot, or particularly care.

 

 

I think there is a lot of difference between an Underkeeper and a Policeman.

Why not use a Bus Driver as an example ?

Would I think less of all Bus Drivers and refuse to travel by Bus, if I saw one in uniform, off duty, misbehaving ?

The answer is "No".

Its the individual, not the "uniform".

 

I think too many people are unduly sensitive about what they think people's opinion is of shooting and those associated with it.

 

It's not the public's opinion we should be bothered about, but our (the collective for firearms owners) actions that reinforce their opinions. If we do everything right and they bad mouth us anyway, **** them. But if we do things to give ourselves a bad name, then what right do we have to complain?

[Bitfitter]

I can only imagine my employers reaction should one of the keepers actions or behaviour result in a tabloid story, some of us work for prominent members of society and the press would like nothing more than to besmirch their reputation no matter how tenuous a link it may have to them.

[-Mongrel-]

I think there is a lot of difference between an Underkeeper and a Policeman.

Why not use a Bus Driver as an example ?

 

Fair comment, and I chose policeman as it was the first uniform I thought of.

To be honest, I don't think I'd be as 'upset' if it was a bus driver (although I'll bet his employers would have him for bringing the company into disrepute), but the whole thing about game shooting is it's a sport for the gentry, full of tradition and etiquette etc, and as such, if you are involved in it you should be expected to act accordingly whenever in the company colours!

[leeds chimp]

 

It's not the public's opinion we should be bothered about, but our (the collective for firearms owners) actions that reinforce their opinions. If we do everything right and they bad mouth us anyway, **** them. But if we do things to give ourselves a bad name, then what right do we have to complain?

you can say that about any profession tho.... builders, plumbers. Any one in a uniform.....

You ever been in a `working class ` pub? Or just a nice champagne bars?

[Luckyshot]

Where I live its not unusual for people to be in the Pub in tweeds, gaiters and boots, none are Gamekeepers, just country people.

 

I doubt if 99% of the general public, or children, know what goes on at a Game Shoot, or particularly care.

 

 

I think there is a lot of difference between an Underkeeper and a Policeman.

Why not use a Bus Driver as an example ?

Would I think less of all Bus Drivers and refuse to travel by Bus, if I saw one in uniform, off duty, misbehaving ?

The answer is "No".

Its the individual, not the "uniform".

 

I think too many people are unduly sensitive about what they think people's opinion is of shooting and those associated with it.

 

Best post on this thread, under keepers I know and see do far worse than this regularly and so do a lot of other people why should they be singled out just because of the job they do. At the end of the day they are usually young lads and Ile hold my hand up I will more than likely of done the same in my younger days.

[scotslad]

I find it slightly ironic that yes the boys were i the wrong and should have behaved better but there young and to be perfectly honest the younger generation don't have the same morals or standards as the older generations (and i'm not even 40 so not really that old)

 

But this thread has went on for 3 pages bringing there actions to the general public of wot was a nothing incident the barmaid prob never even noticed and so dragging shooting/gamekeeping into disrupte more than the actual event ever did.

 

As far as i'm concerned u dealt with it there and then, hopefuly the boys would off thought about it and realised they were wrong, but now u have publised a tiny incident which will be water of a ducks back to most bar maids who generally give more than they get, don't really see the point in a thread about it.

 

If they were cheeky to u after u had a word, either take them outside and give them a slap or tell tale to their head keeper, wouldn't imagine it woud be that hard to find out which estate there from by the tweed

[digger]

When I was an underkeeper we visited a pub in the next village and had a real tear up with the locals. It became a seasonal fixture.

[leeds chimp]

I find it slightly ironic that yes the boys were i the wrong and should have behaved better but there young and to be perfectly honest the younger generation don't have the same morals or standards as the older generations (and i'm not even 40 so not really that old)

 

But this thread has went on for 3 pages bringing there actions to the general public of wot was a nothing incident the barmaid prob never even noticed and so dragging shooting/gamekeeping into disrupte more than the actual event ever did.

 

As far as i'm concerned u dealt with it there and then, hopefuly the boys would off thought about it and realised they were wrong, but now u have publised a tiny incident which will be water of a ducks back to most bar maids who generally give more than they get, don't really see the point in a thread about it.

 

If they were cheeky to u after u had a word, either take them outside and give them a slap or tell tale to their head keeper, wouldn't imagine it woud be that hard to find out which estate there from by the tweed

I remember when I first started going out with SWMBO ....

Sat at the end of the bar one night and two lads come in....ordered a pint and SWMBO kinda knew them....they said a few comments to her which she laughed off......I sat and smiled .......

Then she came back and they started again a bit more lewd....she said she was seeing someone and not interested.....one of them made a comment about it along the lines of "if he was here now i would kick him out of the bar and have you to myself" ....So i just walked over and said "hello" in a "polite" way...nice to see his face drop and and both of them very quickly sunk their pints....never to be seen again in there

[Penelope]

Having met you I can imagine to look on their faces.

 

I remember when I first started going out with SWMBO ....

Sat at the end of the bar one night and two lads come in....ordered a pint and SWMBO kinda knew them....they said a few comments to her which she laughed off......I sat and smiled .......

Then she came back and they started again a bit more lewd....she said she was seeing someone and not interested.....one of them made a comment about it along the lines of "if he was here now i would kick him out of the bar and have you to myself" ....So i just walked over and said "hello" in a "polite" way...nice to see his face drop and and both of them very quickly sunk their pints....never to be seen again in there

[old rooster]

Having met you I can imagine to look on their faces.

 

 

He must be tiny wee fella judging by the size of that rabbit?? LOL

[leeds chimp]

Having met you I can imagine to look on their faces.

 

 

:yahoo: it was a right picture.....dont mind a bit of banter but they took it too far....

Glenn (who is the village idiot/drunk but a really nice bloke) is the only one that can get away with saying stuff to her when we are in there...when I first met him I wanted to drop him....now I know he is "kinda" joking

 

He must be tiny wee fella judging by the size of that rabbit?? LOL

the rabbit is nearly as big as a doberman....

[yod dropper]

If they were in work time or representing their business in an official capacity it's one thing, if not it's another. Things have moved on, not least employment legislation. Let's face it, these days you can be a police officer, have sex whilst on duty with someone's wife, have it all over the media and keep your job.