HMR barrel life?

[fieldwanderer]

I know, it's been done to death but I'm a little concerned to be honest;

 

Over the last two days, I've been shooting groups with my savage .17hmr. It's completely standard apart from being steel/epoxy bedded. I'm not doing well at all! I consider myself to be a pretty good shot and have accounted for hundreds of bunnies with this rifle, many of them over 150 yds away with the longest shot being a 320yd crow.

 

However, at 100yds yesterday I couldn't do better than a 5" group with a nice clean barrel - I went back out today hoping the mirage yesterday was the cause, best group was 2" at 100yds with very little mirage and a steady wind directly from me to target (I'd normally expect a one hole group from this rifle at 100yds).

 

I clean it regularly, probably more than most do. I've had the rifle for about 4 years, it was secondhand when I bought it, and I'd guess I've put around 6000 shots through it if not more

 

So, I know it's considered "un-do-able" but, do you think with above average cleaning and quite high volumes of ammunition through it, I could have worn the barrel out?

 

As far as I know, nothing else has changed - is there some way to test whether it's a barrel problem or something else?

[bicykillgaz]

Have you tried it with the mod off, tightened all stock/action screws and the mounts and have you got a different scope to try incase it's had a knock? Is it a new batch of ammo you've just started? It's probably something simple.

[henry931]

Just a thought do you know if the solvent you use is good at removing copper?

 

I ran a .17 HMR through the accurate barrel life spreadsheet and it came up with 35,000 rounds but it's designed for centrefires really.

 

Any damage to the crown area?

 

Also do you store it with the mod on? I've heard nasty stories about what the trapped residue can do to the end of the barrel but again not sure if it applies to a rimfire.

[fieldwanderer]

hmmm, good points actually!

 

it's new ammunition though I've not checked the batch numbers - never noticed any differences though

 

mod's normally cleaned and put back on for storage - saves me forgetting it and it's a good routine to have imho (plus it's a stainless barrel).

 

Shoots just the same without mod

 

crown's fine,it was the first thing I checked. I'll check stock screws in the morning but I can't help but think they've been fine for months so shouldn't have changed.

 

I recently started using a different copper solvent (can't remember it's name off the top of my head) but all was well for a week or more and very suddenly it's not

Edited September 28, 2013 by fieldwanderer

[turbo33]

I feel your pain FW. I posted a while ago about how fantastic the groups were with my new cz452. Sub 1" at 100 yards and a perfect cloverleaf at 50yds, which was absurdly good given that the last HMR I had was about 6"+ at 100yds So Confidence up, I went out with a mate lamping. Had 13 but lost count of how many misses. Nothing past 75 yards so it should have been a walk in the park. SO back to the range. I tried the Winchester ammo I had been using and it was all over the place. I also used some remingtons. They were really good and back on 1" at 100 with no adjustments to anything. Went out night before last lamping again. Had 10, which should have been 20 and I'm not owning up to how many shots I fired :o So its back to the range again to find out what the hell is going on. I have no idea I have to say, I'm getting a bit bored of the complications I have experienced with the hmr. Never had this sort of hassle with 22lr. Your not alone

[Redgum]

I feel your pain FW. I posted a while ago about how fantastic the groups were with my new cz452. Sub 1" at 100 yards and a perfect cloverleaf at 50yds, which was absurdly good given that the last HMR I had was about 6"+ at 100yds So Confidence up, I went out with a mate lamping. Had 13 but lost count of how many misses. Nothing past 75 yards so it should have been a walk in the park. SO back to the range. I tried the Winchester ammo I had been using and it was all over the place. I also used some remingtons. They were really good and back on 1" at 100 with no adjustments to anything. Went out night before last lamping again. Had 10, which should have been 20 and I'm not owning up to how many shots I fired :o So its back to the range again to find out what the hell is going on. I have no idea I have to say, I'm getting a bit bored of the complications I have experienced with the hmr. Never had this sort of hassle with 22lr. Your not alone

When you go from .22lr to hmr the ranges will be no doupt further out with a lighter bullet. This will be subject to more external forces, ie the weather. I have never had the one hole groups through my hmr as many claim though its a consistant 3/4inch group, mostly more accurate and occasionally worse. 22lr ammo has been knocked out for years, who know's how consistant the ammo is,seems from what I read this could be part of the issue. Maybe 17hmrs are testing the boundaries on rimfire ammo.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Redgum

[turbo33]

When you go from .22lr to hmr the ranges will be no doupt further out with a lighter bullet. This will be subject to more external forces, ie the weather. I have never had the one hole groups through my hmr as many claim though its a consistant 3/4inch group, mostly more accurate and occasionally worse. 22lr ammo has been knocked out for years, who know's how consistant the ammo is,seems from what I read this could be part of the issue. Maybe 17hmrs are testing the boundaries on rimfire ammo.

 

I think you could well be right Redgum It seems the "bad batch" thing comes up so often as the most probable consistent cause of accuracy issues

[fieldwanderer]

Agreed, anything's possible

 

I don't have any pictures but I've certainly shot plenty of 1/2" groups at 100yds. It could even just be the mirage - I don't often get to shoot in it, though I do have a reasonable understanding of it's effects

 

I'll have a look in the morning, hopefully I can get out early enough to beat the heat - that'll rule that out

[Amazed]

On my savage mk2 the firing pin was too long and it damaged the chamber where the bolt face fits causing all sort of accuracy problems.

[team tractor]

The biggest issue I used to have when I shot ft was I shot that much that I used to average 27-29 out of 30 but I got stressed and started getting 22 - 24 then a few weeks later 18 :( .

I had a few months off and shot awesome again

 

Don't stress when you miss it'll only make you worse .

I missed a simple thing the other day at 75 yards aiming for the head and I don't miss lol

I took the gun and shot at targets out to 100 yards and cleared 10 out of 10 .

 

Take time out before you worry

Also check your grip on the fore end .

Breath right

All simple things we forget in a rush

[turbo33]

The biggest issue I used to have when I shot ft was I shot that much that I used to average 27-29 out of 30 but I got stressed and started getting 22 - 24 then a few weeks later 18 :( .

I had a few months off and shot awesome again

 

Don't stress when you miss it'll only make you worse .

I missed a simple thing the other day at 75 yards aiming for the head and I don't miss lol

I took the gun and shot at targets out to 100 yards and cleared 10 out of 10 .

 

Take time out before you worry

Also check your grip on the fore end .

Breath right

All simple things we forget in a rush

Sound advice

[fieldwanderer]

Absolutely, but it's not new to me - I appreciate the help though Without blowing my own trumpet, I can tell when it's me and when it's the rifle. In this case it's the rifle, unfortunately; fixing me's free

[snipers eye]

use kg copper remover and a patch worm,if you are using a rod or snake you may not be removing all the copper.

[Gimlet]

I've never found much copper in my HMR bore, just burnt powder residue. I don't think the velocity is high enough. My .222 has 1000 fps on the HMR and patches come out of that bright blue. If the OP's cleaning routine hasn't changed but grouping has its got to be something else. I wonder whether its possible to shoot out an HMR barrel. More likely to rust one out with that fine rifling.

[markbjones01]

interesting topic this, please don't knock me gents for asking a question, but what do you mean by the mirage effect ?

[malkiserow]

Wobbly view through the heat haze off the barrel

[Gimlet]

Heat shimmer off a rimfire barrel..?

[henry931]

The moderator normally gets the hottest and is the worst for haze. The barrel can be bad as well it's why you see loads of TR shooters with mirage bands taped to the barrel.

[Dekers]

Mine has shot 8-10,000 and still works.

 

Never had a one hole group, this is the best I have ever done .......and it doesn't happen like that every time.

 

[mick miller]

However, a friend of mine utterly ruined his first by improper cleaning. Rather than using a bore guide he simply rodded through the bolt opening, he also held the rod rather than the handle so that the rod could not rotate.

 

The results after a few of these 'cleaning' regimes were incredible. A previously accurate rifle would not make even a 3' group at 40 yards. The bullets were actually tumbling as they left the barrel. You could clearly see cone shaped marks on the target where they had struck. All of them failed to expand.

Edited September 29, 2013 by mick miller

[markbjones01]

re mirage; thanks lads guess ive never fired enough shots at same time to come across this , nice to learn something new

[Amazed]

However, a friend of mine utterly ruined his first by improper cleaning. Rather than using a bore guide he simply rodded through the bolt opening, he also held the rod rather than the handle so that the rod could not rotate.

 

The results after a few of these 'cleaning' regimes were incredible. A previously accurate rifle would not make even a 3' group at 40 yards. The bullets were actually tumbling as they left the barrel. You could clearly see cone shaped marks on the target where they had struck. All of them failed to expand.

Bloody hell what was he using to clean it with ? A wet stone

 

I know it's not a rimfire but the hornet is along the same lines. I rod it very rarely one pass with a bronze brush to clear any ****. Most if the time I use patches with a bit of solvent. Then a light oil to finish. I don't see how a round that is very similar would require all the mass scrubbing ? Do you think hmr users are over cleaning there rifles ?

But in this case I would be looking at other things first. Scope/ bolt/ chamber/ mod and barrel clearance.

[fieldwanderer]

Heat shimmer off a rimfire barrel..?

Nope, off the ground between me and target - acts like a very strange lens and makes the target appear to move slightly.

 

Off to do some more shooting and try to figure this out, before the ground warms up too much hopefully.....

Edited September 29, 2013 by fieldwanderer

[dadioles]

At 100 yards it is not going to be anything to do with heat haze or mirage effect between you and the target so don't waste time with that one.

 

You have already tried mod on and mod off with no difference so that tends to eliminate the moderator.

 

A different make of ammunition or at the very least a completely different batch is important to try.

 

The scope and mounts are an obvious one. Are the turrets adjusted near their mid points? Are they wound near to the extreme? The internals of a scope are very sensitive and it only takes a couple of thou movement magnified over 100 yards to cause the effect that you describe.

 

Cleaning is sometimes a bit of a black art. It would only take a tiny copper deposit to unbalance a bullet. The area of barrel near the chamber is quite critical. Discussed to the point of insanity, if you clean it, clean it properly and absolutely thoroughly. It may take you a couple of hours if it has not been thoroughly cleaned before and you will need rod, brush, patches, bore guide, solvents. There is no other way to really clean.

 

If you don't have rods and brushes, not cheap, try different ammo first, if that does not help, remove the scope and mounts completely, wind the turrets from end to end counting the clicks and set them back to the middle position and take it from there, shim if needed. At least that only takes time and not money. By winding the turrets from one extreme to the other it will help re-set the scope tube.

[Gimlet]

Agree with the above. And if all else fails try another scope. I had a similar problem with my HMR a while ago. It had shot perfectly then one day it just went to pieces. 4-6" groups at 100 yards. I hadn't dropped it or banged it, it just suddenly went wild for no apparent reason. Some days it was almost ok, the next it was terrible.Tried all the usual things without success. I was wrestling with it one day when I noticed that POI was moving by a suspiciously consistant margin every time I altered the magnification. It was shooting **** groups either way but when I turned up the mag they were **** groups striking higher up the paper. I robbed a Hawke scope off my air-rifle and tried again and it was bang on the money again immediately.

The internals of the cr-ppy Nikko-Stirling that was on it were moving. It was a tiny amount which fooled me into suspecting some other cause. Now its got a Meopta R1 on it and I haven't looked back.