pigeon controller Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I have started to make some new pigeon cradles out of fencing wire. I made the last set when I was at work and got the lads in a supplies company to braze them. I made them and he welded them and we split them between us. I have been retired for some time now and only use them on tall rape but I need to make some more. I do not want to buy a welder just for a small job but would buy a small gas set up just to braze them. I've tried with a small gaz torch and it melts the braze but the frame just glows red and will not flow. Has the PW Massive some knowledge of a method to braze these frames on the cheap. I'm not into buy a set of bottles of acetylene . Any ideas will be appreciated . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wickenuk Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 you need to get your wire to a cherry red then try the brazing rod,also you must have either a ready fluxed rod or a tin of flux to dip the hot rod into before brazing. good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Try and get some silver solder it melts at a lower temp then brazing rod .Wire the pieces together cut a small piece of silver solder lay along side the join heat with a gas torch until lit melts ,all surfaces need to be covered in borax flux to make sure the silver solder or brazing rod flows Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bala Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 def need some flux pc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike737 Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I seem to remember reading that you can use copper electrical cable - with the plastic insulation removed!!! - and household borax as flux? Might be miss-remembering, so don't try this to get your cars through their MOT's... But for pigeon cradles that don't need much structural strength, it might work. Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 As you need to buy not rent the bottles now once you get sorted might as well buy a little cheapo gasless mig from Halfords or a cheap little MMA set off the bay. Heck its a darn site easier than brazing such a joint. MMA rods can be had for brazing (actually brass arc welding) though never needed to use them I did once do some copper plate butt jointed that way it was real easy I seem to remember but memory fades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon controller Posted December 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 you need to get your wire to a cherry red then try the brazing rod,also you must have either a ready fluxed rod or a tin of flux to dip the hot rod into before brazing. good luck Realise that I'm not getting enough heat into the frame for the braze to flow , I have a tub of Flux . I just want a cheap way of getting more heat into the frame. Disposable plumbers gas canister , Machine Mart, B&Q , Wickes etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon controller Posted December 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 As you need to buy not rent the bottles now once you get sorted might as well buy a little cheapo gasless mig from Halfords or a cheap little MMA set off the bay. Heck its a darn site easier than brazing such a joint. MMA rods can be had for brazing (actually brass arc welding) though never needed to use them I did once do some copper plate butt jointed that way it was real easy I seem to remember but memory fades I have a gas less mig welder but I have found they break as they work harden when you use them . In my youth I use to make trials bike frames and brazing was the way, but my Dad had the gas bottles. That's why I want to braze this lot so I do not have to make any more. Thanks for all the replies so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 You can not use electrical wire as a brazing rod what plant are you on!!! I seem to remember reading that you can use copper electrical cable - with the plastic insulation removed!!! - and household borax as flux? Might be miss-remembering, so don't try this to get your cars through their MOT's... But for pigeon cradles that don't need much structural strength, it might work. Mike. Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aga man Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) a rothenberger super fire 2 would do the job but might be a bit pricey at £50 ish plush a tenner for a gas bottle. i use one of these in my profession and they can burn very hot. depends how many cradles you plan on making i suppose, you can buy ten cradles off ebay for £26[delivered] at the moment. Edited December 10, 2013 by aga man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike737 Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 You can not use electrical wire as a brazing rod what plant are you on!!! Deershooter I did say 'I seemed to remember', but please see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m678-clpbjw I am not on any plants btw... Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bala Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I did say 'I seemed to remember', but please see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m678-clpbjw I am not on any plants btw... Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon controller Posted December 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 a rothenberger super fire 2 would do the job but might be a bit pricey at £50 ish plush a tenner for a gas bottle. i use one of these in my profession and they can burn very hot. depends how many cradles you plan on making i suppose, you can buy ten cradles off ebay for £26[delivered] at the moment. Thanks Aga Man that's what I wanted ,£50 not to bad as I've got for future projects as for EBay cradles they are not to my design as my cradle make the birds look obese. Again thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon controller Posted December 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Thanks Aga Man that's what I wanted ,£50 not to bad as I've got for future projects as for EBay cradles they are not to my design as my cradle make the birds look obese. Again thanks. What gas would you recommend propane or Mapp??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I have a gas less mig welder but I have found they break as they work harden when you use them . In my youth I use to make trials bike frames and brazing was the way, but my Dad had the gas bottles. That's why I want to braze this lot so I do not have to make any more. Thanks for all the replies so far. Work harden? ?? not in welding them, the weld should be stronger than the metal at either side IF its done right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aga man Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 What gas would you recommend propane or Mapp??? i would imagine the mapp would be better/hotter but i would imagine the propane would suffice. i only use mine for soldering copper and heating the odd non shifting bolt etc, but they are said to be suitable for brazing and i can't see why not. useful bit of kit for the workshop anyway and a gas bottle lasts a good long while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon controller Posted December 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Work harden? ?? not in welding them, the weld should be stronger than the metal at either side IF its done right Yes Work Harden , engineering term , as you try to push them into frozen ground pre dawn the frame has a tendency to bend but the weld is strong you have to bend them back into shape or position to make the bird look natural over time the bending by the weld makes the frame break and eventually to be replaced. Hence the original question/post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antdg Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 hi I have used one of these for many years when brazing. I already had the pipe, reg and propane bottle (BBQ). http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/fc109-gas-torch-with-nozzles Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stokie Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Mapp gas burns much hotter than propane and is better suited to brazing . Use silver solder it's just as strong as brazing with a lower melting temp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon controller Posted December 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Thanks guys for all your inputs , been out shooting today and returned home to find the dreaded card through the door , " We tried to deliver your parcel today" this means that I've got to go and fetch my gas and torch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bala Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Thanks guys for all your inputs , been out shooting today and returned home to find the dreaded card through the door , " We tried to deliver your parcel today" this means that I've got to go and fetch my gas and torch. play time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aga man Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Thanks guys for all your inputs , been out shooting today and returned home to find the dreaded card through the door , " We tried to deliver your parcel today" this means that I've got to go and fetch my gas and torch. i don't know, being out shooting when the parcel man comes, what was you thinking if it's the rothenberger torch you bought you won't be dissapointed fella, money well spent that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 (edited) Aye, Rothenberger Sure fire and Mapp gas will be all you need, it's what I use. Oh, don't forget to use brazing flux (normally a powder, dip a hot rod into it), plumbers flux isn't really up to the job. Edited December 13, 2013 by -Mongrel- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 (edited) PC you might want to use a fire brick to bounce back some reflected heat Edited December 13, 2013 by malkiserow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antdg Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 PC you might want to use a fire brick to bounce back some reflected heat +1 for fire bricks. I use to very soft type, you can cut them into any shape you want with old woodworking tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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