motty Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 I don't think banning lead would achieve anything but if it was banned, alternatives would be made available and we'd have to use them, like or not I suppose. The alternatives are already available. The easiest and cheapest to use is steel.# Tungsten will not really come down in price - it's expensive. A won't make much difference if more people use it. It's like expecting shot made from gold( which would be quite good) to come down in price just because lead was no longer an option and people wanted to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 You can get speed without to great a pressure. 12ga fedral 3" win 209 47.5 grn Alliant steel Sam1 felt to suit 437.5 grn steel shot 1795 fps 10,000 psi. Yes there are factory they just aint thick on the ground at that speed in the UK By gum! On a rule of thumb, if you wrapped a load of 0.150" pellets up in that it would give a lead load of N0 3s having an MV of 1450fps a run for its money on a small/medium goose at 40 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 What I meant was, as my usual pigeon shell is 28gm 7 or 7.5 in lead, that I would not require anything different in steel to kill pigeons at 20 yards. Yep, that's a bit different and makes perfect sense. If, however, let's say that for discussion purposes your usual lead No 7s killed the pigeon out to 40 yards, then under the same conditions and assuming the same MV, to achieve that with steel you would require an English No 4 for a comparable energy level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Yep, that's a bit different and makes perfect sense. If, however, let's say that for discussion purposes your usual lead No 7s killed the pigeon out to 40 yards, then under the same conditions and assuming the same MV, to achieve that with steel you would require an English No 4 for a comparable energy level. Maybe. I will have to load a few and test them, but I would imagine some no.5 may well do the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Maybe. I will have to load a few and test them, but I would imagine some no.5 may well do the job. Yep, possibly as a No7 lead may still perform a tad after the 40 yards. We are after all talking theory which practice may just alter things a bit. Not that you yourself suggested it in any shape or form, but it's obvious that from these figures that even with practical use as opposed to theoretical assessment, 71/2 steel will not consistently kill beyond 20 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Yep, possibly as a No7 lead may still perform a tad after the 40 yards. We are after all talking theory which practice may just alter things a bit. Not that you yourself suggested it in any shape or form, but it's obvious that from these figures that even with practical use as opposed to theoretical assessment, 71/2 steel will not consistently kill beyond 20 yards. Again, this is something I haven't really tried at 40 yards. Rich G, however, who used to post on this forum, said they were good to 35 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 You can get speed without to great a pressure. 12ga fedral 3" win 209 47.5 grn Alliant steel Sam1 felt to suit 437.5 grn steel shot 1795 fps 10,000 psi. Yes there are factory they just aint thick on the ground at that speed in the UK The pressure you quoted is actually near as damn it on the limit for European shells. The bulge happened due to running too big shot through too tight a choke. That load will not pass standard cip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 The pressure you quoted is actually near as damn it on the limit for European shells. The bulge happened due to running too big shot through too tight a choke. That load will not pass standard cip. Near is not over and remember this is proper super speedy fast, not nearly fast but really fast. Couldn't care a jot about CIP its just holding us back in the past. No more than 1/2 choke for me in steel - period it just aint required and don't help none, if someone thinks they need full choke to kill stuff with a load like that there is no helping them anyhow LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Near is not over and remember this is proper super speedy fast, not nearly fast but really fast. Couldn't care a jot about CIP its just holding us back in the past. No more than 1/2 choke for me in steel - period it just aint required and don't help none, if someone thinks they need full choke to kill stuff with a load like that there is no helping them anyhow LOL While not being cip i can't but wince at 40grains of powder per shot. Hardly economical at 500quid for 1000shells. As for choking. Its down to personal preference. PS the cip guidelines are extremely strict. And having a dacent shell pass is hard enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 The alternatives are already available. The easiest and cheapest to use is steel.# Tungsten will not really come down in price - it's expensive. A won't make much difference if more people use it. It's like expecting shot made from gold( which would be quite good) to come down in price just because lead was no longer an option and people wanted to use it. It might come down a bit because of cheaper production but I agree, it won't suddenly drop to anywhere near the price of lead. Although going forward lead probably won't stay cheap either, there will be some sort of 'green tax' that makes it just as expensive. The only people against a total lead ban is the avarage working man, I see it as a financial issue, the landed gentry won't lose sleep about paying an extra £20 a box for a tungsten mix, so if its purely financial considerations then a ban is on its way, the government seem happy to tax people ridiculous amounts for carbon emissions and they'll probably win a few more votes if they reduce the amount of people out shooting at fluffy ducks and pheasants. Banning lead will only affect me by reducing (or stopping altogether) my Saturday morning clay shooting, I'll still shoot game as I only get through a box of 25 cartridges on an avarage day anyway. The big bag pigeon/corvid shooters will feel a rather stiff kick in the nuts though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 It might come down a bit because of cheaper production but I agree, it won't suddenly drop to anywhere near the price of lead. Although going forward lead probably won't stay cheap either, there will be some sort of 'green tax' that makes it just as expensive. The only people against a total lead ban is the avarage working man, I see it as a financial issue, the landed gentry won't lose sleep about paying an extra £20 a box for a tungsten mix, so if its purely financial considerations then a ban is on its way, the government seem happy to tax people ridiculous amounts for carbon emissions and they'll probably win a few more votes if they reduce the amount of people out shooting at fluffy ducks and pheasants. Banning lead will only affect me by reducing (or stopping altogether) my Saturday morning clay shooting, I'll still shoot game as I only get through a box of 25 cartridges on an avarage day anyway. The big bag pigeon/corvid shooters will feel a rather stiff kick in the nuts though. A 'green tax' is a method of obtaining as much money as possible from something which it is not possible to do without for whatever reason. The art in this is to control the level of taxation such that it is pitched just below that where the squeal of pain becomes a roar of anger - the Poll Tax was an example of what happens if you get that assessment wrong. The country does not need lead shot as it does fuels and therefore, should my point be valid, there'll be neither a tax nor lead shot in the near future. What we lack at present is any real idea of the performance across the full quarry list spectrum of steel shot which it would appear that that is the one option, the only current option, available to the majority of shooters and probably the vast majority that carry out high volume vermin control. The one possible immediate exception, but excluding vermin control, is that bismuth might be a low usage financial option for some. Yet again, there is very little performance detail published on this either. I really don't think that, 'go up at least two shot sizes' cuts the mustard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 While not being cip i can't but wince at 40grains of powder per shot. Hardly economical at 500quid for 1000shells. As for choking. Its down to personal preference. PS the cip guidelines are extremely strict. And having a dacent shell pass is hard enough. Yeah, but these are not clay loads! Have you seen the cost of good factory (good meaning pretty poor but the best we can get) Remington Nitro steel 3" are like a £1 a pop and 1350 fps (allegedly) . Generally choking is down to not having the facts at hand and still thinking "lead shot" Steel patterns tighter per choke and a lot of experienced fowlers will say full and full was too much choke in the lead days It might come down a bit because of cheaper production but I agree, it won't suddenly drop to anywhere near the price of lead. Although going forward lead probably won't stay cheap either, there will be some sort of 'green tax' that makes it just as expensive. The only people against a total lead ban is the avarage working man, I see it as a financial issue, the landed gentry won't lose sleep about paying an extra £20 a box for a tungsten mix, so if its purely financial considerations then a ban is on its way, the government seem happy to tax people ridiculous amounts for carbon emissions and they'll probably win a few more votes if they reduce the amount of people out shooting at fluffy ducks and pheasants. Banning lead will only affect me by reducing (or stopping altogether) my Saturday morning clay shooting, I'll still shoot game as I only get through a box of 25 cartridges on an avarage day anyway. The big bag pigeon/corvid shooters will feel a rather stiff kick in the nuts though. I am wondering what you be using on them fluffy duckies now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 'a lot of experienced fowlers will say full and full was too much choke in the lead days'. Hence why I had my Midland 3" opened up to 1/4 & 1/2 in '91' when I bought it, having come from a full & full Kestrel magnum 12, and a cyl/cyl No.4 AYA before that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) I am wondering what you be using on them fluffy duckies now? Alfred only mentioned shooting clays and game. Edited December 18, 2013 by wymberley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Now I was referring to this "The only people against a total lead ban is the avarage working man, I see it as a financial issue, the landed gentry won't lose sleep about paying an extra £20 a box for a tungsten mix, so if its purely financial considerations then a ban is on its way, the government seem happy to tax people ridiculous amounts for carbon emissions and they'll probably win a few more votes if they reduce the amount of people out shooting at fluffy ducks and pheasants". Cant see why it should stop clay shooting BTW? Steel is quite good on clays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Now I was referring to this "The only people against a total lead ban is the avarage working man, I see it as a financial issue, the landed gentry won't lose sleep about paying an extra £20 a box for a tungsten mix, so if its purely financial considerations then a ban is on its way, the government seem happy to tax people ridiculous amounts for carbon emissions and they'll probably win a few more votes if they reduce the amount of people out shooting at fluffy ducks and pheasants". Cant see why it should stop clay shooting BTW? Steel is quite good on clays Ah, I thought you were asking Alfred, " what you be using", meaning Alfred himself as opposed to, "people out shooting". Obviously, unless the north west is also south west Scotland, he won't be shooting fluffy duckies with lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Ah, I thought you were asking Alfred, " what you be using", meaning Alfred himself as opposed to, "people out shooting". Obviously, unless the north west is also south west Scotland, he won't be shooting fluffy duckies with lead. The gist of my earlier post was that I think the gubbermint wouldn't be too upset to have a few people quit shooting altogether, but fair point, suggesting people would stop shooting "fluffy ducks" because of the lead ban doesn't make sense. It had been a long day. I use Gamebore TMX 32g. I don't know how the tungsten mix compares to lead on paper, but in practice it stops the ducks well and its probably my imagination but it seems to hit a lot harder and pattern tighter than the same weight lead used on game birds. No idea how it would perform on clays, especially at different sizes, I wouldn't fancy 100 clays with 32g cartridges anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 19, 2013 Report Share Posted December 19, 2013 You can get light steel loads and some very fast ones with more pellets, great for clays especially skeet. A lot of gameshots waste a stack of cash on designer non-toxic, fair enough if you have a fine old English gun but the greatest majority of us don't use such guns and might be better just using steel. Lets face it if you out with a gun costing 5 figures you don't really give a monkeys how much a few squibs cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted December 19, 2013 Report Share Posted December 19, 2013 If it happens then I shall buy a truck load of lead shot cartridges to see me out . Harnser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred Posted December 19, 2013 Report Share Posted December 19, 2013 You can get light steel loads and some very fast ones with more pellets, great for clays especially skeet. A lot of gameshots waste a stack of cash on designer non-toxic, fair enough if you have a fine old English gun but the greatest majority of us don't use such guns and might be better just using steel. Lets face it if you out with a gun costing 5 figures you don't really give a monkeys how much a few squibs cost I don't have an old english gun, but I do have one that I'm rather fond of, it doesn't have a FDL (although it is steel proofed) and I'm reluctant to use steel. So for the amount I actually use it on ducks its not a major headache to buy a steel/lead alternative, but obviously I wouldn't pay that to shoot 100 clays every weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 19, 2013 Report Share Posted December 19, 2013 If it happens then I shall buy a truck load of lead shot cartridges to see me out . Harnser. Meaning you should ignore the law? That's what has gotten us to this point - non compliance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted December 19, 2013 Report Share Posted December 19, 2013 My thoughts exactly, because it will be use that's outlawed not ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 19, 2013 Report Share Posted December 19, 2013 I don't have an old english gun, but I do have one that I'm rather fond of, it doesn't have a FDL (although it is steel proofed) and I'm reluctant to use steel. So for the amount I actually use it on ducks its not a major headache to buy a steel/lead alternative, but obviously I wouldn't pay that to shoot 100 clays every weekend. if its steel proofed I shouldn't worry too much, all said and done people have damaged guns with faulty lead shells. but if your happy there is no need as yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 I bought some steel loads the other day fir the odd duck that I might happen across. They are standard steel #4 I haven't seen a duck since but u have seen a few crows and some pigeons and can say they brought them down at about 40 yards with ease. Nothing wrong with my range estimation either. Cheeper than many a lead load and did the business. Certainly didnt bounce off and the birds were dead as a door nail when they hit the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Meaning you should ignore the law? That's what has gotten us to this point - non compliance Non compliance in wildfowling has nothing to do with banning lead on a wider scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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