Kes Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) Isnt a total ban unlikely since, as far as I am aware no other country which has banned lead for wetlands/wildfowl has banned its general use, could be wrong of course. I suggest a fair proportion of shooters are older shooters and would maybe decide enough is enough and walk away. If lead were banned in bullets - one of them would be me. My big no-no is wounding - it happens but at the ranges to kill with confidence with NTS I wouldnt call it sport. Just MHO. Edit Added one word Edited December 20, 2013 by Kes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 this is my concern , IF this does happen yes there are lots of options , and to be honest a lot more than I thought ( which has to be good news ) but myself as a rough *** pigeon shooter on a budget . I am limited to around the £300 per thou ( Max ) anything after that it is going to have an impact on how many times I can shoot , and in turn the service I give to the famers / land owners . what im trying to say is I will only be able to afford steel . I have no doubt that the right steel cartridge will do the job as well ,and give the same sort of ranges that my current cart will do , BUT from what i can see is steel and fibre wads are not really a very good mix for lots of reasons , they really need to be in a plastic wad ( I could very well be wrong on this ) Now all the land I shoot is fibre wad only , so could very well be an issue . and last but not least is the effects of prolonged use of steel ? yes i know that even lead can damage barrels however in my ignorance i never worry about this when using lead , i feel using steel every time ,its ALWAYS going to be in the back of my mind . Like I said I could totally have the wrong end of the stick on that subject . i just haven't had enough use of steel to see the results for myself and therefore stop worrying about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Non compliance in wildfowling has nothing to do with banning lead on a wider scale. Correct because compliance rates are very high. The issue is game shoots non compliance, this poses the biggest threat- the rest we can fight from firm ground and evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Isnt a total ban unlikely since, as far as I am aware no other country which has banned lead for wetlands/wildfowl has banned its general use, could be wrong of course. I suggest a fair proportion of shooters are older shooters and would maybe decide enough is enough and walk away. If lead were banned in bullets - one of them would be me. My big no-no is wounding - it happens but at the ranges to kill with confidence with NTS I wouldnt call it sport. Just MHO. Edit Added one word Wounding due to non toxic bullets isn't an issue from what I have seen. The issue lies in the poor in flight ballistics and with the heavier large quarry bullets in increased ricochet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 I bought some steel loads the other day fir the odd duck that I might happen across. They are standard steel #4 I haven't seen a duck since but u have seen a few crows and some pigeons and can say they brought them down at about 40 yards with ease. Nothing wrong with my range estimation either. Cheeper than many a lead load and did the business. Certainly didnt bounce off and the birds were dead as a door nail when they hit the floor. My own mental conversion came when I picked up some steel 5s that looked like my Gamebore 36 grm no.5 lead in the gunroom. I had a great crow flight that night, with totally the wrong shells and only realised picking up the empties, I also shot and killed DRT one of the longest rabbit shots I have achieved with a shotgun. The issue many have is one of mental doubt, this creates a choppy or hesitant swing and guess what it has an impact on wounding rates "lead is unforgiving" and you just don't get many flukey undeserved kills as the shot holds a dense short pattern with wild fliers being very rare in comparison to lead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 no, i think its just the shells have been developed to perform better than ever. in the older days gone by, 1200fps load loads cut it. infact they were a staple for many many years. with steel the greatest limitations is purchasing the wrong shotsize. -did you know, that even going up one steel shotsize is like going up only 0.5 a shotsize ? this is due to the low density of steel compared to lead and the fact the shotsizes are actually a lead grading system. so lead automatic has an advantage. speed has only been achievable in the past 10 years. the powders and wads were not available. i`ll be making and shooting lead all the way up until the end. i even use steel now and again. i have multiple guns, and i know one cant candle it. the others are fine. its just that one gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfowler12 Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) Isnt a total ban unlikely since, as far as I am aware no other country which has banned lead for wetlands/wildfowl has banned its general use, could be wrong of course.In Holland, Sweden and Denmark, the use of lead shot for game is prohibited too I believe (at least in some circumstances). And I'm sure I read somewhere that Scandanavia have banned it completely, even for clays EDIT: after a quick google search, Denmark has also completely banned the use of lead shot in cartridges. Edited December 20, 2013 by Wildfowler12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 no, i think its just the shells have been developed to perform better than ever. in the older days gone by, 1200fps load loads cut it. infact they were a staple for many many years. with steel the greatest limitations is purchasing the wrong shotsize. -did you know, that even going up one steel shotsize is like going up only 0.5 a shotsize ? this is due to the low density of steel compared to lead and the fact the shotsizes are actually a lead grading system. so lead automatic has an advantage. speed has only been achievable in the past 10 years. the powders and wads were not available. i`ll be making and shooting lead all the way up until the end. i even use steel now and again. i have multiple guns, and i know one cant candle it. the others are fine. its just that one gun. I feel we can make to big a play on shot size. Sure bigger shot retains more energy but smaller shot has a smaller frontal area as regards penetration and has more head and neck strikes possible through higher shot count (when range is appropriate) this is not factored in to the calcs. That said I like BBB for geese and no.3 or no.2 for duck, my reasoning is the high shot count to load weight makes smaller shot less relevant and also the fact that bigger shot are easier to find when preparing birds for the table (the later being my only dislike of steel shot - broken teeth or cutting up all your birds). Some come under to great a level of criticism for using smaller shot in steel, if the range is appropriate and the quarry size then I see no great issue with someone else's personal choice to use smaller shot. I walk onto one marsh that holds a lot of snipe but always leave them be with my number 3's for instance and I know at least one wildfowler who uses nothing but a steel clay load on geese and duck, I have to say he takes his fair share of Wildfowl yet respects the capabilities of that which he uses and sticks rigidly to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 This can be a highly emotive issue and as such we can sometimes lose track of a few things.Lead shot is not facing a ban due to non-compliance, lead shot is facing a ban as it is claimed it is toxic, and not just to wildfowl. The issue of non-compliance may well play a part and no doubt many will relish the chance to shout 'told you so', but there are many agendas at work here and either with or without compliance lead will go eventually. Lead shot is still falling into waterways, ponds and rivers on a daily basis during the shooting season,even on those lands which have no wildfowl.....the answer is easy. Lead content has been removed from many sources which it is claimed put at risk human health, and the Wetlands Trust et al made big issue of what they claimed were the dangers of eating game shot with lead as part of their agenda. These claims were shot down in flames when the toxicity of lead shot game was proved to be negligible when compared to other foodstuffs. However, agendas still remain and whether we agree or disagree with the findings of various agendas is neither here nor there; frankly we shooters (and in particular British shooters) are in no position to oppose those agendas. I am a big fan of lead, and will mourn its demise, but there is nothing wrong with steel, which is fortunate from my point of view as I can't afford to shoot the alternatives. I use Gamebore Super Steel 32 grm 4's, and find they will kill dead in the air anything you can put the pattern on at normal ranges through 1/2 and 1/4, and through 3/4 are too much for bolting rabbits if you intend to eat them. My only criticism of steel shot is the plastic wad needed to ensure the non scoring of barrels(which steel proofing is no guarantee against)as it is seriously environmentally unfriendly. Unless cartridge manufacturers can develop a wad which will both protect barrels and the environment then it wont be long before we are facing yet another backdoor campaign to ban shooting due to littering the countryside with millions of pieces of plastic. Believe me, there is more than the demise of lead at stake here. Agendas. The demise of lead shot will do nothing to lessen the numbers of birds dying slow and painful deaths either from wounding , as wounding will still occur,and if some are correct, nor from ingestion of spent shot as it has been suggested steel in similar quantities is also toxic. Whether you agree or disagree with any of the above is irrelevant, while we are subject to European Directives, lead will eventually go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Meaning you should ignore the law? That's what has gotten us to this point - non compliance I have some expensive guns that were never meant to shoot steel shot . I say steel shot as steel is proberbly the only affordable alternative to lead . A good friend of mine and a proper gunsmith has told me never to shoot steel through any shot gun .because of the number of guns that have been into his shop with irreparable damage caused by steel shot . As I do not bother to shoot wild fowel any more I can manage with out steel or the expensive alternatives . Harnser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 I have some expensive guns that were never meant to shoot steel shot . I say steel shot as steel is proberbly the only affordable alternative to lead . A good friend of mine and a proper gunsmith has told me never to shoot steel through any shot gun .because of the number of guns that have been into his shop with irreparable damage caused by steel shot . As I do not bother to shoot wild fowel any more I can manage with out steel or the expensive alternatives . We should be looking at the hidden agenda of banning all shooting and gun ownership . Just another way of narrowing down who can offord to be able to shoot . Believe me they will win in the end . Harnser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 I have some expensive guns that were never meant to shoot steel shot . I say steel shot as steel is proberbly the only affordable alternative to lead . A good friend of mine and a proper gunsmith has told me never to shoot steel through any shot gun .because of the number of guns that have been into his shop with irreparable damage caused by steel shot . As I do not bother to shoot wild fowel any more I can manage with out steel or the expensive alternatives . Harnser. The question posted was If it was totally banned, again non-compliance will only threaten future shooting (if this every happens) if ALL do not comply. I cannot disagree with your or any third party statement but I know a lot of guys who only shoot steel and don't know any who have yet wrecked a gun via its use. Steel shot shouldn't come into direct contact with your barrel, the steel proof is about pressure not shot contact, a true vintage gun is sort of worth shooting soft non toxic through on its value alone if nothing else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 I have some expensive guns that were never meant to shoot steel shot . I say steel shot as steel is proberbly the only affordable alternative to lead . A good friend of mine and a proper gunsmith has told me never to shoot steel through any shot gun .because of the number of guns that have been into his shop with irreparable damage caused by steel shot . As I do not bother to shoot wild fowel any more I can manage with out steel or the expensive alternatives . Harnser. I'm sure you could manage, but if shooting lead shot has become illegal, and you continue to use your stockpile of lead, then that's non-compliance. Ergo, there's no point in going out and buying 500,000 cartridges 'to see you out'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 there most likely will be an adjustment period. in the states there was a phase on period of 5 years..... it depended on stats and #duck shot reported. etc,.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 The question posted was If it was totally banned, again non-compliance will only threaten future shooting (if this every happens) if ALL do not comply. I cannot disagree with your or any third party statement but I know a lot of guys who only shoot steel and don't know any who have yet wrecked a gun via its use. Steel shot shouldn't come into direct contact with your barrel, the steel proof is about pressure not shot contact, a true vintage gun is sort of worth shooting soft non toxic through on its value alone if nothing else If you have never seen lead streaks down the inside of shot gun barrels then you have never owned a shot gun . Imagine streaks from steel shot ,from shot proberbly harder than the barrels and you have a recipe for disaster . I can assure you that guns are being damaged from shooting steel shot . I have seen 3 in my friends work shop with gouges the length of the barrels ,yes gouges not removable streaks . Harnser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mat Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) If you have never seen lead streaks down the inside of shot gun barrels then you have never owned a shot gun . Imagine streaks from steel shot ,from shot proberbly harder than the barrels and you have a recipe for disaster . I can assure you that guns are being damaged from shooting steel shot . I have seen 3 in my friends work shop with gouges the length of the barrels ,yes gouges not removable streaks . Harnser. But steel is used with a enclosed wad, it should not come into contact with the barrels. Almost all i fire is steel, my barrels are almost perfect in both guns. Neither are steel shot proof, use proper cartridges and there is no problems Edited December 21, 2013 by Big Mat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) If you have never seen lead streaks down the inside of shot gun barrels then you have never owned a shot gun . Imagine streaks from steel shot ,from shot proberbly harder than the barrels and you have a recipe for disaster . I can assure you that guns are being damaged from shooting steel shot . I have seen 3 in my friends work shop with gouges the length of the barrels ,yes gouges not removable streaks . Harnser. Well I don't know how many steel shells I have shot but its more than a few. Steel shells are made using different wads etc and it just don't come into contact with the barrel wall unless something has gone very wrong. Don't compare lead with steel the two are very different. if anyone wants to inspect my auto they are very welcome its been fed Steel for the last 4-5 seasons that I have owned it from new and through the wildfowling season I normally do around two flights a week - not a single score. Frankly I feel either you or the third party gunsmith made this one up, believe me us wildfowlers would not be using the stuff if guys were ruining guns and as a member of three clubs I know of nobody who has and the ban has been on for many years now for us Edited December 21, 2013 by kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrshiretaxidermy Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Yep, possibly as a No7 lead may still perform a tad after the 40 yards. We are after all talking theory which practice may just alter things a bit. Not that you yourself suggested it in any shape or form, but it's obvious that from these figures that even with practical use as opposed to theoretical assessment, 71/2 steel will not consistently kill beyond 20 yards. Respectfully..................what a lot of peeeesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Well I don't know how many steel shells I have shot but its more than a few. Steel shells are made using different wads etc and it just don't come into contact with the barrel wall unless something has gone very wrong. Don't compare lead with steel the two are very different. if anyone wants to inspect my auto they are very welcome its been fed Steel for the last 4-5 seasons that I have owned it from new and through the wildfowling season I normally do around two flights a week - not a single score. Frankly I feel either you or the third party gunsmith made this one up, believe me us wildfowlers would not be using the stuff if guys were ruining guns and as a member of three clubs I know of nobody who has and the ban has been on for many years now for us I just hope that you are honest enough to come back on here and when you do see evidence of damaged barrels from steel shot .It only takes one pellet to spoil a gun ,and may be you will be man enough to apologise for accusing me of making it up .The problem is very real ,and I say it again I have seen it . Harnser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mat Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Why are we not seeing the damage then? I want pictures not just word of mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Why are we not seeing the damage then? I want pictures not just word of mouth. Because the guns that I saw were in a gunsmiths shop . Harnser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Because the guns that I saw were in a gunsmiths shop and shown to me out of a matter of intrest . I have used steel shot in the past ,but never again . Harnser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 I am an avid fan of steel and use it for most of my shooting ( except for when farmers give me a slab of lead shells for pigeon shooting). I use steel 32 gr through a couple of game guns ( non steel proof AYA no 3 and Gunmark Kestrel) without any problems and of course use steel through my Browning 3.5 inch S\A. I too have heard tales of damage from steel in some older guns , but on further investigation I found some shooters were using 3 inch shells through 2 3\4 inch guns or in one case using steel high performance shells through a non steel proof game gun. As for the plaswad problem, the cartridges 2 farmers give me for pigeons always have plastic wads so even though they are mixed arable and livestock farms the farmers do not have any concerns over plaswads. Being bio degradable they disapear within a few months. Like some on here I used to hate steel and the loads of 5 years ago were pretty p00r but today its a differnt story though there are still a few bad shells out there. Pick a fast shell with pellet sizes 2-3 times larger than you would in lead , make sure you do not use any choke over 1\2 and steel will do 95% of the job lead would. Though I must confess after using steel I do sometimes have trouble hiting birds if I switich back to lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbust Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 I have to admit, I have used factory steel shot in a couple of guns and have never seen any damage. Indeed I have stripped a steel cart down and was quite surprised how plyable the shot was. I am not saying that it is safe for barrels but have used various types of carts and never seen any damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edenman Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Because the guns that I saw were in a gunsmiths shop and shown to me out of a matter of intrest . I have used steel shot in the past ,but never again . Harnser I mean no offence but you are going to left behind with an attitude like that. Lead shot is going to be banned in the not to distant future I'm sure, so the only alternative is steel shot......I use steel shot for everything now. I have used it in non proofed guns and proofed guns and have never seen damage in the barrels due to steel shot. Steel is most defiantly not as bad as it is made out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts