roebuck1 Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 I was zeroing my 17hmr in today starting at 30 yards and the plan was to move out to 100 yards as the final zero. My groups were about 8 inches up and right from where I was aiming. And that was the closest I could get my groups as I was as far down as I could go on the elevation turret and the same with windage turret. What do I do next? My turrets are turned to both extremes and this is at 40 yards?? Is there something obvious i'm doing wrong? Someone said could be that your scopes too hight, but it definitely isn't, as I bought really low mounts. I'm using a CZ 452 American with a Nikko Stirling Targetmaster scope. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essex Keeper Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) Many things to try but my gun I had to turn the mounts around is the scope in line with barrel when you look from above ?? Some one with better typing skills will be along soon Edited February 9, 2014 by m2tyj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Under the "obvious" heading, is the vertical adjustment turret on the top with the windage on the right side and are you sure that you've adjusted the correct way? Sounds silly, but it wouldn't be the first time. If all is well, centre both adjustments, take every thing off and start again, making sure that the mounts are properly bedded in the grooves or that any other system is correctly installed. Before finally 'nipping' the scope ring screws ensure that the scope is free to move fore and aft smoothly as far as the ring positions permit. If all that checks out and it's still not right, the quickest answer if possible is to try another scope. That avoids all the head scratching as, should that be successful, you can then be certain that it is the scope at fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesj Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 If you have been doing it today it may be a wind problem! Couldn't hit the barn i was standing in the other day because of the wind! Try holding the gun on some sort of rest remove the bolt and sight though the barrel at some thing and zero the cross hairs to the same point if you cant get then to zero then you have some other problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 If you have been doing it today it may be a wind problem! Couldn't hit the barn i was standing in the other day because of the wind! Try holding the gun on some sort of rest remove the bolt and sight though the barrel at some thing and zero the cross hairs to the same point if you cant get then to zero then you have some other problem. +1 Or if it's shooting high trying packing the mounts with negative film Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 +1 Or if it's shooting high trying packing the mounts with negative film Whereas the bore sight check is a very good idea, I feel the wind is a red herring at the range in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesj Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 My bad! Read the bit about 100 yards and didn't take any notice of the bit about 40 yards. So yes wind shouldn't have made that sort of difference! It would be worth checking the stock / barrel clearance. I've just picked up a 243 that was terrible had to take 1.5mm out of the fore end to float the barrel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 I was zeroing my 17hmr in today starting at 30 yards and the plan was to move out to 100 yards as the final zero. My groups were about 8 inches up and right from where I was aiming. And that was the closest I could get my groups as I was as far down as I could go on the elevation turret and the same with windage turret. What do I do next? My turrets are turned to both extremes and this is at 40 yards?? Is there something obvious i'm doing wrong? Someone said could be that your scopes too hight, but it definitely isn't, as I bought really low mounts. I'm using a CZ 452 American with a Nikko Stirling Targetmaster scope. Thanks Can you increase the error? if so you have a mounting issue, if not the scope is jambed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 My bad! Read the bit about 100 yards and didn't take any notice of the bit about 40 yards. So yes wind shouldn't have made that sort of difference! It would be worth checking the stock / barrel clearance. I've just picked up a 243 that was terrible had to take 1.5mm out of the fore end to float the barrel. Barrel floating will have no bearing on scope adjustment. Follow Kents advice and get back to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatherandSon Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 I once had a client that had a similar thing. He was turning the dials to move the crosshairs up and right instead of bringing the bullet down and left. In essence moving the crosshairs to match the bullet instead of the bullet to match the crosshairs. When he reached the end of the adjustment he gave up!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I once had a client that had a similar thing. He was turning the dials to move the crosshairs up and right instead of bringing the bullet down and left. In essence moving the crosshairs to match the bullet instead of the bullet to match the crosshairs. When he reached the end of the adjustment he gave up!!Again if he does as I suggest and checks it will move the "wrong" way he will realise this error soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatherandSon Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 He realised his error when I explained what he was doing wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Don't adjust the turrets anywhere near their extremes. Do a bit of searching and reading on the internet. Lots of good information. It sounds to me as though your mounts are the most likely problem but there are lots of other possibilities. Set your turrets back to their central positions by gently winding to one extreme and then counting the clicks to the other extreme and then back by half the clicks. If your scope and mounts are not faulty or physically misaligned you should not be too far off horizontally with the turret centred. Maybe an inch or so left or right at 30 yards but no more than that. As far as vertical adjustment is concerned. Use old negative film or cut shims from a soft drinks can to pack the front or rear of the scope so that with the turret still adjusted to its central position your bullets land close to the target. Scope turrets are there for "fine tuning" and compensating for drop or wind. They are not intended for major compensation of other mechanically bad settings. Sighting in a scope is quick and simple as long as you do it methodically. The basic alignment can be done without firing a shot by securing the rifle on a stand, removing the bolt and sighting through the barrel on a distant object (I use my neighbours tv aerial). Fit the scope (without moving the rifle) and mount it so that the scope is centred on the same point as your bore sighting, it should be very close horizontally but probably need a shim to pack the rear or front mount. Just take your time. Edited February 10, 2014 by dadioles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 First. Are the ring bases the right size for the rail. Wrong size will push the scope to the one side and cam upwards. If the rings are right I would optically zero your reticle. Counts the full turns of the turrets and wind back half way. Then in a safe place put a round down at a target board. Big board if you can. Has the bullet gone up and and right more than last zeroing of has it moved the other way. If the other way then you know you have been turning the turrets the wrong way. Happens to the best of us. If this doesn't work then swap rings front to back and test again. If bullet strick moves then replace rings. If this makes no difference the turn them around. Screws facing other way. Test shoot. If bullet strike moves then new rings. If no difference the replace scope. Is you was closer here then drop in and i'll have a look if you like. All the best Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Don't adjust the turrets anywhere near their extremes. Set your turrets back to their central positions by gently winding to one extreme and then counting the clicks to the other extreme Use old negative film or cut shims from a soft drinks can to pack the front or rear of the scope as long as you do it methodically. Talk about a contradiction in terms! What on earth is methodical about bodging it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Talk about a contradiction in terms! What on earth is methodical about bodging it? Are you having a bad day Wymberley? Pedantic or what........ Remember... ".... 90% of their customer service issues have to do with scope owners improperly adjusting their scopes....." Quote from Hawke Optics. Ok, I could have been clearer but it should be obvious that what I meant was that it is not good to adjust the turret so that when zeroed the adjustment is near its extreme. Ideally, when zeroed, the turret adjustment should be somewhere near the middle. Achieve this either with adjustable mounts (expensive?) or with shims. Once centred and zeroed you will have plenty of adjustment left for allowing for drop and windage by clicks if desired. More importantly it will allow the scope erector springs to do their job. It is a pity that there are a lot of shooters out there who don't really have a clue about the basics, yet the information is freely available if they would just bother to look. 10 seconds on Google brought up this item... http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/blog/2010/04/how-scopes-really-work-and-what-not-to.html Edited February 12, 2014 by dadioles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Yes, I know what you meant about the extreme adjustment. However, you weren't talking to me but the OP who is already a little confused and as you admit it could have been clearer. I agree entirely with your point about the adjustment should be reasonably central and the use of adjustable mounts where accuracy requirements demand such equipment. Shims are an engineering device used when applicable to ensure the correct assembly of various components which may need some adjustment due to an accumulation of machining errors caused by unavoidable manufacturing tolerances. This could broadly be defined as treating the 'defect'. They are usually installed between a base and the mount of the component which has to be aligned and, rarely, if ever, between the mount and the component itself. This is to avoid stress should there be more that one mounting point. If you attach the two scope mount lower portions to the rifle and lay the scope on them and this slides freely fore and aft with the full mount surfaces in contact with the scope, then when you attach the upper halves and correctly tighten them down, then the scope tube will be in a stress free condition. Should you, however, then decide to stuff something between one mount and the scope because it won't zero, you have immediately caused the scope tube to suffer a bending force which can have various detrimental effects. One of these is to affect the performance of the erector springs which you've mentioned. I draw your attention to your 'edit' and the quote from Hawke Optics. The use of a 'shim' that you describe is not treating the 'defect', but the 'symptom' and the engineering terminology for this is a 'bodge'. Edit: missing letters inserted Edited February 12, 2014 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Wymberley I've never understood the logic behind "packing/shimming" one mount on a scope for the reasons you have pointed out. I've had all sorts of scopes from 35 quid Nikkos up to Nikons. None of them have been more than a few clicks out when centred. And I would consider that few clicks of adjustment far less stress on the mechanics than packing would induce. I think all this talk of packing only serves to confuse and complicate what is probably a simple issue. Edited February 12, 2014 by turbo33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1066 Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I can happen, on even respectable rifles, that the scope rail/mounting holes are not exactly in line with the barrel. I have found the best answer to this problem is to use the Burris signature rings to keep the optics reasonably centred. These rings have adjustable inserts especially for this type of problem and by the way they are designed they won't stress the scope as shimming would. The rings also work well if you need a bit more elevation, either stretching the .22 out well past 100 yds or maybe using something like a .243 out past 600yds where most scopes would run out of adjustment. .http://www.burrisoptics.com/uksite/sigrings.html They're not expensive, don't mark the scope, hold the scope firmly, you can juggle the inserts for up-down/left right or even diagonally if you have a real problem. http://www.opticswarehouse.co.uk/products.asp?cat=Burris+Signature+Zee+Weaver+Rifle+Scope+Rings If you're still having a problem zeroing a scope have a quick look at this short video. I shot this with my phone camera so it's not top quality but it's already had nearly 1/4 million views. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwD5zu7yTeI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 The use of shims to slightly raise either the front or rear of a scope is a method that has been used for as long as there have been scopes mounted on rifles. Not a "bodge", not treating a "defect", but a quick cheap simple and effective way of ensuring that your scope is appropriately lined up with the barrel to avoid extreme adjustment of the turrets. Keep everything nicely centred and the scope will work optimally both mechanically and optically. If the scope is a long way out of alignment horizontally (windage) that suggests the use of the wrong mounts or the incorrect fitting (wrong way round) of the correct mounts, or a faulty scope or misaligned mounting points on the barrel due to an error at manufacture or possibly a bent barrel. I would never advise the use of shims to correct a horizontal issue. The mount is designed to fit snugly around the scope at the sides. There is no issue with the use of thin shim material between the underside of the scope and the mount. Clearly you must not over-tighten the clamping screws. I really do not understand your objection to this tried and tested technique used to adjust scope elevation. Use a pair of scissors to carefully cut a piece of drinks can or old negative about 15mm x 25mm to fit snugly in the bottom half of the mount. It will raise the scope by a few thousandths of an inch which is all that is required. I accept that for a high recoil rifle this may not be ideal but for rimfire or an air rifle it is normal practice and a completely standard technique. As a rule of thumb, a drinks can is about 4 thou in thickness (0.004") and this roughly equates to 4" at 100 yards. Obviously it will vary. To require two shims (double thickness) is unusual but acceptable. Shim the front base for additional down movement and the rear base for additional up movement. You would have to be very clumsy indeed to damage a scope by crushing or bending the tube by grossly over tightening the fixing screws but that will happen from time to time when in the hands of a technically incompetent person irrespective of whether or not they have used a shim. Common sense is sometimes lacking. Leupold (scope manufacturer) state: "Elevation issues can be resolved by shimming. Shimming does not induce stress on the scope, but typically reduces stress by properly leveling the scope to be parallel with the receiver." Hawke Optics (scope manufacturer) provide a shim calculator. Bushnell (scope manufacturer) produce a shim guide. Brownells (gun parts suppliers) produce a scope shim kit. Marlin Rifles (rifle manufacturers) explain in their manual how to apply a shim. I rest my case...... (but could go on and on and on........) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) Could I suggest that bearing in mind you are talking to someone who is already somewhat unsure and asking for help, that you very carefully re-read my post and then even more carefully re-read yours which I referred to and also your one in response to mine. If, then, you still haven't twigged, have a look at a couple of the examples that you gave - say, Brownells and Bushnell. Should it then dawn on you what you've actually said and think what I'm on about is stupid, then stupid or not, I've come across it several times - the most unusual being a piece of a yogurt tub lid. On the other hand, if it remains that what you said is what you meant, then a bodge it is. Edited February 13, 2014 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Yes, I know what you meant about the extreme adjustment. However, you weren't talking to me but the OP who is already a little confused and as you admit it could have been clearer. I agree entirely with your point about the adjustment should be reasonably central and the use of adjustable mounts where accuracy requirements demand such equipment. Shims are an engineering device used when applicable to ensure the correct assembly of various components which may need some adjustment due to an accumulation of machining errors caused by unavoidable manufacturing tolerances. This could broadly be defined as treating the 'defect'. They are usually installed between a base and the mount of the component which has to be aligned and, rarely, if ever, between the mount and the component itself. This is to avoid stress should there be more that one mounting point. If you attach the two scope mount lower portions to the rifle and lay the scope on them and this slides freely fore and aft with the full mount surfaces in contact with the scope, then when you attach the upper halves and correctly tighten them down, then the scope tube will be in a stress free condition. Should you, however, then decide to stuff something between one mount and the scope because it won't zero, you have immediately caused the scope tube to suffer a bending force which can have various detrimental effects. One of these is to affect the performance of the erector springs which you've mentioned. I draw your attention to your 'edit' and the quote from Hawke Optics. The use of a 'shim' that you describe is not treating the 'defect', but the 'symptom' and the engineering terminology for this is a 'bodge'. Edit: missing letters inserted As he says, shimming is still very much a bodge! Aligning scope mounts correctly is of primary importance once you shim one they are very much out of alignment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 As he says, shimming is still very much a bodge! Aligning scope mounts correctly is of primary importance once you shim one they are very much out of alignment. Sorry Kent, but as far as shimming for elevation is concerned it is not a bodge but normal practice. I and thousands of other shooters have been doing this for decades. Of course there will be idiots who use inappropriate shim materials. It is clear from these forums that an awful lot of gun owners don't really have a clue about what they are doing and common sense is often sadly lacking. Leupold (to give just one example) is one of the worlds most respected scope manufacturers. Perhaps you and Wymberley know better than they do! I would never shim for windage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I'm sorry, but in advocating the procedure of shimming the scope, I simply can not understand why one would choose examples of organisations to back one's case when a quick glance at a picture on their advertisements - Bushnell and Brownells - reflect that they are in the business of shimming the mount. We know of the relationship between words and pictures and as you say you could go on and on and on, it would appear at the moment that you have a two thousand word deficit to overcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Sorry Kent, but as far as shimming for elevation is concerned it is not a bodge but normal practice. I and thousands of other shooters have been doing this for decades. Of course there will be idiots who use inappropriate shim materials. It is clear from these forums that an awful lot of gun owners don't really have a clue about what they are doing and common sense is often sadly lacking. Leupold (to give just one example) is one of the worlds most respected scope manufacturers. Perhaps you and Wymberley know better than they do! I would never shim for windage. You cannot centre a scope in two mounts one of which is shimmed as frankly it is not in alignment and it is then not true round. Yes its done, I have done it but a bodge is what it is (done with cheaper scopes, cheaper mounts etc). Why the heck do people choose to lap in rings? I shall explain (bear with as I explain I might be an "idiot" as far as your vast knowledge stands on rifles) so they are perfectly true, concentric and totally round to the scope tube? Heck they could just bung some extra bits in. Issue is it is very easy to crimp the tube or even put a kink / bend in it as you tighten. If you wish to take those risks fine, I do myself on cheap scopes and lesser mounts as when on guns like airguns 1/2 moa error is hardly discernible and the scope cost less than a driven day From what point is it ok to resort to open name calling of all and sundry who disagree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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