Blunderbuss Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Is the title of an interesting article here. Or to put it another way, should the English have their own referendum on English independence? If not why not? Why are the Scots entrusted with this weighty question, but not the English, Welsh and Northern Irish? I admit to playing Devil's advocate here, I believe in the union, I think destroying Great Britain would be a disaster, but I believe in equality and fairness. I don't get why the Scots get a say which will have a massive impact on shape of the country my kids inherit, but I don't. Is that fair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominicrobed Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 I agree we should have a vote too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 As an Englishman living in Scotland with my children and grandchildren born here my interest in this question is about the effect on them and their offspring. I am still undecided about independence. My own feeling on this question is that I would be VERY interested indeed in the majority view of the English, Welsh. N Irish although ultimately perhaps the final decision should be Scottish ? ( I hope this thread doesn't turn into the usual slanging match) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 It is the right of the Scots to determine their own future, however I believe if it goes pear shaped then the English should have the say on them rejoining the UK, in fact its a shame we were not so patriotic ourselves and have campaign for the right to be English rather than a "UK citizen" etc on our passports, when you can actually state your nationality and be proud to be English rather than as seems now apologising for where you were born.in fact lets have a vote for an independent England. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rimotu66 Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 It is the right of the Scots to determine their own future, however I believe if it goes pear shaped then the English should have the say on them rejoining the UK, in fact its a shame we were not so patriotic ourselves and have campaign for the right to be English rather than a "UK citizen" etc on our passports, when you can actually state your nationality and be proud to be English rather than as seems now apologising for where you were born.in fact lets have a vote for an independent England. KW +1 every other nation loves to hate us anyway so way shouldn't we be independent. I also hate having to put my Nationality is British or UK, I am English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 U all seem to have said plenty on the subject so far anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rimotu66 Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 U all seem to have said plenty on the subject so far anyway Bite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominicrobed Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 +2 English. I hate being labeled as British. I'm not again keeping the uk part but I would like to be able to put down on forms passport etc as English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted February 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 +1 every other nation loves to hate us anyway so way shouldn't we be independent. I also hate having to put my Nationality is British or UK, I am English. I'm not sure hate is the right word, but there is certainly some historic baggage which affects the way some countries see us! It's difficult to get a real perspective on that sometimes whilst your here immersed in local issues, but when you travel most people overseas have a lot of respect and admiration for Britain and British values. I consider myself British first and English second. Both are important aspects of who I am, but to me the British bit is really important. I served in the British Army for 23 years after swearing an oath of allegiance to the Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, alongside Welsh, Irish, Scots and commonwealth soldiers. I'm not sure I'd have been quite so motivated to join an English army, or that it would have been as relevant and effective :( If Britain had been 4 separate countries doing their own thing during the second world war we'd all be speaking German now. The cold war might have had a different outcome too. We might have enjoyed relative peace close to home for a few decades, but that is the blink of an eye in historic terms. Who knows what is around the corner? Defence is one big reason why we are better off together, but there are loads of others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjh Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 I'm not sure hate is the right word, but there is certainly some historic baggage which affects the way some countries see us! It's difficult to get a real perspective on that sometimes whilst your here immersed in local issues, but when you travel most people overseas have a lot of respect and admiration for Britain and British values. I consider myself British first and English second. Both are important aspects of who I am, but to me the British bit is really important. I served in the British Army for 23 years after swearing an oath of allegiance to the Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, alongside Welsh, Irish, Scots and commonwealth soldiers. I'm not sure I'd have been quite so motivated to join an English army, or that it would have been as relevant and effective :( If Britain had been 4 separate countries doing their own thing during the second world war we'd all be speaking German now. The cold war might have had a different outcome too. We might have enjoyed relative peace close to home for a few decades, but that is the blink of an eye in historic terms. Who knows what is around the corner? Defence is one big reason why we are better off together, but there are loads of others. why do people think GB had such a big influence on WW2, we did our "bit" but in all honesty speaking German or not is down to the Russia eastern front & American finance and troops our only real contribution to the cold war was offing the US a strategic air base Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rimotu66 Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 why do people think GB had such a big influence on WW2, we did our "bit" but in all honesty speaking German or not is down to the Russia eastern front & American finance and troops our only real contribution to the cold war was offing the US a strategic air base Am off to get some popcorn for this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted February 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 why do people think GB had such a big influence on WW2, we did our "bit" but in all honesty speaking German or not is down to the Russia eastern front & American finance and troops our only real contribution to the cold war was offing the US a strategic air base If Britain had lost the battle of Britain and been invaded, there would have been no platform to mount the invasion of Europe which ended the war, not to mention as a launch pad for strategic bombing, SOE and partisan drops etc before that. The Atlantic convoys which helped Russia? Our code breaking which by most estimates shortened the war by two years? You are correct of course, the US and Russia had a huge influence, but to dismiss our part so tritely is a bit sad IMHO As to your second point, as a cold war warrior who spent his formative years in BAOR when our army wasn't far off 200,000 waiting for the Russian hordes, I beg to differ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 I enjoy the patriotism shown by each of the home nations and I encourage it, you should be proud to be English, Welsh, Northern Irish or Scottish, each nation have contributed a great deal on their own and as part of the melting pot that is GB & NI I think the whole package is greater that the sum of the individual parts. If the English wish to have a vote on independence then get organised behind an English national party and make it happen, but i suspect that the wide regional variations within England would make that very unlikely. I would have no problem if there were devolved national assemblies for all the home countries, it would help to put an end to the attitude, sometimes shown, that England = Britain and you could potentially have a more streamlined and targeted delivery of services. Sadly it would also mean another layer of government, so more snouts in the trough. I don't think the rest of the UK should have a vote in the upcoming Scottish referendum, you could have a situation where the vast majority of Scots choose to say no, but purely by weight of number the rest of the UK could decide otherwise. That would be a very dangerous precedent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scobydog Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 why do people think GB had such a big influence on WW2, we did our "bit" but in all honesty speaking German or not is down to the Russia eastern front & American finance and troops our only real contribution to the cold war was offing the US a strategic air base Personally I think the 450000 or so people who died fighting for the uk in ww2 would consider they had done more than their "bit", imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Personally I think the 450000 or so people who died fighting for the uk in ww2 would consider they had done more than their "bit", imho. Boom Couldn't agree more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted February 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Personally I think the 450000 or so people who died fighting for the uk in ww2 would consider they had done more than their "bit", imho. Absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 I'm not sure hate is the right word, but there is certainly some historic baggage which affects the way some countries see us! It's difficult to get a real perspective on that sometimes whilst your here immersed in local issues, but when you travel most people overseas have a lot of respect and admiration for Britain and British values. They certainly do. Perhaps it's the case that (to a significant extent) the 'historic baggage' is actually something that we carry with us, rather than something imposed on us by others? Isn't all this alleged English-bashing merely a figment of a rather paranoid imagination? I've travelled all over the world and have never experienced it. But then with travel, as with so many other things, you tend to find what you take with you. There is perhaps a fine line between being proud to be part of something and a little too parochial. Putting British down as my nationality? Doesn't bother me, and why - really - should it? Why the obsession with having to make a rather pedantic point about being 'English' as opposed to British? What are people afraid of? Why not put Germano-Anglo-Saxon-Jute-Huguenot blah blah blah, in the interests of strict accuracy? And to return to the OP, yes we should have a say. I for one don't want to see import duties on haggis! (I know I know, there wouldn't be any...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 It is the right of the Scots to determine their own future, however I believe if it goes pear shaped then the English should have the say on them rejoining the UK, in fact its a shame we were not so patriotic ourselves and have campaign for the right to be English rather than a "UK citizen" etc on our passports, when you can actually state your nationality and be proud to be English rather than as seems now apologising for where you were born.in fact lets have a vote for an independent England. KW I think this may have to happen if the Scots get independence. I wonder how many Scots who vote for independence will put their money where their mouth is and renounce their British citizenship in favour of a Scottish one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjh Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 i think the numbers speak for themselves, GB paid a terrible price in WW2 but put it into context Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsonicnat Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Why can`t your passport state English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abacist Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 It irritates me when the Scots and Welsh can determine their own destiny to a large extent through their own government assemblies and yet the ******* still vote as MP's in our parliament about what goes on in England. They should have the decency to withdraw or abstain on matters affecting England! Frankly I'd prefer to keep the Union and abolish the separate assemblies as they just exacerbate the postcode lottery on so many things in life! Proud to be English but also proud to be British and a citizen of the United Kingdom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 There's no way the rest of the UK should have a say in whether or not Scotland leaves the Union. It is a matter for Scotland. In the same way no other country in the EU should have any say whatever if the UK (or any other member state) votes on leaving the EU. That amounts to subjugation. On the other hand, if the people of Scotland do choose to leave, the other members of the union should most certainly have a say on the terms. The whole question of Scottish secession and the way it is being handled and debated is messy and amateurish and this is down the fact that those terms should have been threshed out well in advance of a referendum, with concrete proposals voted and approved, at least in principle, by all parliaments and assemblies of the UK. Instead we have this febrile bickering over half-truths, ifs and maybes with childish threats and foot-stamping thrown in. The blame for this evasion of hard bargaining, in my opinion, lies with Salmond and his Nationalists because the emotional driver behind his campaign is antipathy towards England and all things English rather than any intellectually coherent ambition for a truly independent and fully functioning nation state and he hopes to sail to victory on a wave of this hot-headed nationalism without coming a cropper on hard facts. If that were to happen he would miss his moment in time and some-one else would get to be King of Scotland and that isn't in the script. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Gimlet You have an amazing ability to say things I wish I had, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 Has anyone else noticed that the second programme to come up on the Sky TV listings has morphed in to BBC 2 Eng. Is this down to regional stuff on Independence or the BBC estimate of the referendum outcome? I'm very proud to be British first and English a very close second. If the Scots go, it'll stay the same. The We;sh were at Rourkes drift and got a few VC's - I knew a Scot who had the MM, fighting OUR wars, all our wars. I'd prefer to stay where we are but voting ? we all should have that Scots,Welsh, Northern Irish and England, the break up should be by all of us choosing - we are / were all in this together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta06 Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 When the Salmond Roadshow fails to win independence, does that meant he irritating man will go away and leave us to get along with our lives?? Or, then a push for Devo Max, so he can be king, but with no accountability for failures??? I am positive the general people of Scotland will vote in favour of the Union - I work with dozens of scots and don't know any that want to break away. If Salmond wins, I will donate a week's salary to the Chosen charity of PW for 2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.