paddymax123 Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 hi guys looking to get something new choke wise for my al391 berretta, looking at getting something like the pattern master sort of thing but have never seen any reviews on it and not sure if it only really performs well with non toxic which I don't get the chance to use much. looking for something that will shorten the shot string as I know that pattern master claim to shorten it to 4 feet rather than a regular 17ish feet. does anyone have one and can answer these questions, or have you got any other suggestions. thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrcbr Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 Have u thought about muller chokes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 Can they prove it shortens the shot string? And how is this a benefit? http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/276129-patternmaster-chokes/?do=findComment&comment=2456034 Seem to have their fans... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konnie Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I too am looking at the pattern master or wadwizard a friend uses the latter but having trouble finding where to get one ONLY from observation I would say they do alter pattern he will kill with his third shot without trouble on the foreshore. any info much appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddymax123 Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 do they only work non toxic or can I put lead through them as long as it is plastic wad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 hi guys looking to get something new choke wise for my al391 berretta, looking at getting something like the pattern master sort of thing but have never seen any reviews on it and not sure if it only really performs well with non toxic which I don't get the chance to use much. looking for something that will shorten the shot string as I know that pattern master claim to shorten it to 4 feet rather than a regular 17ish feet. does anyone have one and can answer these questions, or have you got any other suggestions. thanks guys Well that's the claim HOWEVER steel has very short shot strings compared to lead and is one reason why many struggle with it and also why its popular for skeet in the states. Do I want is shorter? nope! Lot of BS spoke to impress the unwary IMO. What an aftermarket choke can do is change you pattern from the regular factory one for the same constriction or lack of it, if that is for the better or worse you will have to put it on paper and see in a back to back test. I often use a Kicks modified choke and I like the external aspect of it for easy removal, though lacking a second external choke it looses a lot of the advantage which might be easy field changes. I found it made the pattern of my SX3 more even and somewhat tighter than the factory modified with number 3 gamebore mammoth steel shells, yet made little difference with 42 grm of number 1 over the factory. The number 3 now outpattern their impact velocity so treat increase in range with a pinch of salt if not a large block or two What I will add is my dealer reports seeing over pressure damage with wad stripper type chokes and those silly square shot things from Winchester give advice on not using them with wad stripper chokes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAsh Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I am still confused about chokes and their effect from the specialist makers It's got to be the simplest thing in engineering to reduce the size of the barrel, Now multi chokes were not first made that long ago and I guess some makers in the early days could have made much better ones than other makers With today's methods of measuring exactly what goes on inside a choke and adding CNC controls, even a idiot could copy the one that gives the best results, so are expert gun-makers not able to make chokes or is it all perceived value and quality Its the same with back-bore etc nothing special just a wider bore but still staying within the 12 gauge size limits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 With the ongoing development of non toxic shot and the vast array of 'wonder products', all these fancy chokes being one example, it is a crying shame that the industry, together with the associations perhaps, could not keep the Ballistic Research Laboratory going. This facility was able to show exactly how a cartridge was performing and any manufacturer's unjustified claims for their product would soon be spotted. Anyone boasting they can reduce the shot string from 7.5 metres to 90% of the pellets within 4.5 metres at a range of 40 metres would soon come to grief as for the 7.5 metre string, 90 % of the pellets are within the 4.5 metres anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatFreddysCat Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 hi guys looking to get something new choke wise for my al391 berretta, looking at getting something like the pattern master sort of thing but have never seen any reviews on it and not sure if it only really performs well with non toxic which I don't get the chance to use much. looking for something that will shorten the shot string as I know that pattern master claim to shorten it to 4 feet rather than a regular 17ish feet. does anyone have one and can answer these questions, or have you got any other suggestions. thanks guys On the subject of shot strings If we assume that at 40 yds the shot is travelling at approx 750ft/sec The shot will travel 1ft in 0.00133 sec Therefore the difference between the front and back of a 4ft shot string will be 0.00533 sec The difference between the front and back of a 17ft shot string will be 0.02261 sec A 40mph bird travels 58.66 ft in 1 sec Between the front and back of a 4ft string the bird travels 0.3126ft, or about 4 inches Between the front and back of a 17ft string the bird travels 1.3263ft, or about 16 inches Hence a 17ft shot string allows you about an additional 1ft of aiming error over a 4ft shot string if your error is ahead of the bird. If you're behind, you'll still miss! I'm not a mathematician so happy to be corrected on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddymax123 Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 hi FFC the reason I asked about this was because I am looking for better pattern density for much cleaner kills. I would rather have the option of a clean miss then a badly wounded bird due to 'aiming error' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On the subject of shot strings If we assume that at 40 yds the shot is travelling at approx 750ft/sec The shot will travel 1ft in 0.00133 sec Therefore the difference between the front and back of a 4ft shot string will be 0.00533 sec The difference between the front and back of a 17ft shot string will be 0.02261 sec A 40mph bird travels 58.66 ft in 1 sec Between the front and back of a 4ft string the bird travels 0.3126ft, or about 4 inches Between the front and back of a 17ft string the bird travels 1.3263ft, or about 16 inches Hence a 17ft shot string allows you about an additional 1ft of aiming error over a 4ft shot string if your error is ahead of the bird. If you're behind, you'll still miss! I'm not a mathematician so happy to be corrected on this. The maths make sense but the argument is flawed as with the pellet density in the latter half or more is such that the best case scenario is a miss and the worst a wounded bird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 hi FFC the reason I asked about this was because I am looking for better pattern density for much cleaner kills. I would rather have the option of a clean miss then a badly wounded bird due to 'aiming error' Pick a cartridge loaded with a good quality shot the size of which has sufficient energy to kill the quarry at the maximum range you envisage. Match this with a load weight with which you are comfortable and then select the most open choke which will give you a lethal strike rate for the number of pellets in that load. More open the choke, the shorter the string. This is about the best you can do and has proved successful for the passed 15 decades or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
station Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On the subject of shot strings If we assume that at 40 yds the shot is travelling at approx 750ft/sec The shot will travel 1ft in 0.00133 sec Therefore the difference between the front and back of a 4ft shot string will be 0.00533 sec The difference between the front and back of a 17ft shot string will be 0.02261 sec A 40mph bird travels 58.66 ft in 1 sec Between the front and back of a 4ft string the bird travels 0.3126ft, or about 4 inches Between the front and back of a 17ft string the bird travels 1.3263ft, or about 16 inches Hence a 17ft shot string allows you about an additional 1ft of aiming error over a 4ft shot string if your error is ahead of the bird. If you're behind, you'll still miss! I'm not a mathematician so happy to be corrected on this. So does this mean if I still miss then I am even a worse shot than I thought ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerous Brian Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 On the subject of shot strings If we assume that at 40 yds the shot is travelling at approx 750ft/sec The shot will travel 1ft in 0.00133 sec Therefore the difference between the front and back of a 4ft shot string will be 0.00533 sec The difference between the front and back of a 17ft shot string will be 0.02261 sec A 40mph bird travels 58.66 ft in 1 sec Between the front and back of a 4ft string the bird travels 0.3126ft, or about 4 inches Between the front and back of a 17ft string the bird travels 1.3263ft, or about 16 inches Hence a 17ft shot string allows you about an additional 1ft of aiming error over a 4ft shot string if your error is ahead of the bird. If you're behind, you'll still miss! I'm not a mathematician so happy to be corrected on this. There are a couple of other things to think about: The first (and probably not going to make a massive difference) is that in order to get a shot string in the first place, the pellets at the back have to be moving more slowly than the ones at the front. These are likely to be the damaged ones so will be decelerating more quickly than the more rounded ones. Not sure what that does to the end figures but it makes it a lot more difficult (for me at least) to calculate how far a bird will have moved accurately. The second point is (if I have followed your thoughts properly) that you have assumed the shot string to be a uniform column of evenly spaced shot. I have no first hand experience of this but from (limited) reading around the subject it seems that the most widely accepted theory is that the front section is the most dense and most even, probably with a slightly denser core. The tail of the string, if we assume that these are the damaged pellets tend to be found towards the edge of the pattern (another reason they are at the back- they have travelled further) because they do not fly straight. looking down on the string it would probably look like a > shape. Perhaps the claim of a certain choke being able to shorten the shot string is an extrapolation of it's ability to allow more pellets through it undamaged. I think Wymberley's approach is the best way forward. Relying on the back end of a 17 foot shot string is going to make for a lot of runners and is not the way I would want to be shooting (not that I am much good anyway....). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAsh Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 17 ft say 6 metre is a massive proportion of 40 metres to have slowed down that much I remember some time ago a test where the gun was fired from a fixed table at a moving car towing a large trailer with a long pattern sheet to try and measure the string. The car speed was pre set and the results compared with shots fired when stationary Silly thing is I have forgoten what the results were Sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby b Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wj939 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 The only real world way to tell is on a pattern plate, your shot string will be a rear drop shape which is an inevitability due to the physics involved in rapidly accelerating numerous spherical particles down a cylinder, whilst this is not represented on a pattern plate. A shorter shot string is not always going to be a good thing there is always going to be a certain amount of runners clipped by the edge of the pattern, whether that be a slow or fast pellet in an open or tight choke, I understand the theory but I think the claims are over exaggerated in practice. My point is that There are too many variables in every aspect of throwing that many pellets down a tube that it's never going to produce consistent results. If you wanted to consider the effects of a 17ft shot string you'd also need to factor in the effect of firing from a moving barrel, all these theory's promoted by choke companies are extrapolated from a stationary barrel and are inferred differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 i`d only ever use a specialist choke with large steel. 2s and BBs etc. if i ever intend to go bigger (6mm) then its cyl. i have a briley standard invector F/F set for my o/u. i can honestly say they are real solid compared to the other mandel (cyl) set i have. i prefer the quality briely chokes over the factory. the mandels (or whoever they are) just plain suck. they just about fit right. they only reason i bought them is because i got a fantastic deal on them £5 a pair, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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