Nigel Farage

[old rooster]

+1 Rooster.

 

The whole EU plan came out of WW2 with both Germany and France thinking that if they had closer trading links with each other and the other countries, another war would be almost impossible.

 

A cynic might even suggest that it was third time lucky for the Germans, with the French in tow, as they pretty much pull the strings these days without the expense and disruption of going to war again.

[woodcock11]

 

What crisis ?

Fisherman Mike - you talk a lot of good sense in this thread which is why you are no doubt coming in for a fair bit of flack - don't let it get you down [i am sure it wont!]

 

You are absolutely right with "what crisis?" When you think of the mess that the present government inherited and where we are now, my one real fear is that Labour will get in next year and undo all the progress that has been made - I am sure too that it would have been swifter without the millstone of the Lib Dem coalition partners.

 

As someone else has said, Farage reminds me too of the archtypical slimy and not very good salesman - we have all come across them, happy to pump out any drivel and half truths to make sale.

 

Yes, UKIP will probably do quite well in the European elections - it is not a big deal and then they will slide back to being the marginal nonentities that they are in the General Election next year - it happened last time and it will happen again in 2015. The one fear is that Labour will win a majority by default with some natural Conservative voters being tempted by Farage's scaremongering and lies.

 

The line up of weirdos and crackpots who may become UKIP MEPS will show the party as it really is.

 

One other point that strikes me is the age profile of the majority of the UKIP supporters - the golden oldies - who will inflict a disaster on our country if they get their way and which the younger generations - not them - will have to live with in the future.

 

One final point on the Clegg v Farage debate last night. It is claimed that Farage "won" - so what if he did? Clegg is a lightweight who will sink into obscurity come 2015, along with the Lib Dems. It means nothing!

Edited April 3, 2014 by woodcock11

[Scully]

I can't recall who said it now, it may have been that former Sun(?) editor Mackenzie, but he hit the nail on the head when he said that all the Tories needed to do (or any party for that matter) to finish off UKIP, was to adopt most of UKIPs policies. The fact remains that UKIP have many Tory defectors in their ranks, and have come to be so popular simply because non of the mainstream parties will listen to the average man/woman in the street. They are so blinkered with their 'we know what's best for you' attitude that they think we don't realise what they are really saying is 'we know what's best for us' . People have had enough of the same old lies and deceit, and as Farage pointed out, we wont be given a 'in out' referendum because the mainstream parties are terrified of the verdict.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Scully

[manc-munsters]

Fascinating discussion so far and long may it continue.

 

As a neutral, I found the Farage program very enlightening. The Nigel/Nick debate last night was also very informative and gave a good insight in to both personalities.

 

The only thing I would say is spoiling this particular discussion is when people try to become "holier than thou" and post things like the following

 

Did you go to School ?

 

Why do you assume I am a Clegg supporter. ?

 

Even more so when the author then post several other replies that have both spelling and grammatical errors that show a major lack of understanding of the English language.

 

Discussion, debate and freedom of speech are major elements of a democratic society. Restrictions on subjects to be discussed and highlighting perceived educational failing are best left to dictators and children, respectively.

 

M-M

[Penelope]

Simon Heffer - Daily mail.

 

I can't recall who said it now, it may have been that former Sun(?) editor Mackenzie, but he hit the nail on the head when he said that all the Tories needed to do (or any party for that matter) to finish off UKIP, was to adopt most of UKIPs policies. The fact remains that UKIP have many Tory defectors in their ranks, and have come to be so popular simply because non of the mainstream parties will listen to the average man/woman in the street. They are so blinkered with their 'we know what's best for you' attitude that they think we don't realise what they are really saying is 'we know what's best for us' . People have had enough of the same old lies and deceit, and as Farage pointed out, we wont be given a 'in out' referendum because the mainstream parties are terrified of the verdict.

[Fisherman Mike]

Fascinating discussion so far and long may it continue.

 

As a neutral, I found the Farage program very enlightening. The Nigel/Nick debate last night was also very informative and gave a good insight in to both personalities.

 

The only thing I would say is spoiling this particular discussion is when people try to become "holier than thou" and post things like the following

 

 

Even more so when the author then post several other replies that have both spelling and grammatical errors that show a major lack of understanding of the English language.

 

Discussion, debate and freedom of speech are major elements of a democratic society. Restrictions on subjects to be discussed and highlighting perceived educational failing are best left to dictators and children, respectively.

 

M-M

Moi ?

Fascinating discussion so far and long may it continue.

 

As a neutral, I found the Farage program very enlightening. The Nigel/Nick debate last night was also very informative and gave a good insight in to both personalities.

 

The only thing I would say is spoiling this particular discussion is when people try to become "holier than thou" and post things like the following

 

 

Even more so when the author then post several other replies that have both spelling and grammatical errors that show a major lack of understanding of the English language.

 

Discussion, debate and freedom of speech are major elements of a democratic society. Restrictions on subjects to be discussed and highlighting perceived educational failing are best left to dictators and children, respectively.

 

M-M

Try not to use so many big words when referring to educational failings please.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Moi ?

Try not to use so many big words when referring to * educational failings please.

 

You should have placed the word "MY" between to and educational.

[Fisherman Mike]

 

You should have placed the word "MY" between to and educational.

Sorry tightass I cant read.

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

Fisherman Mike - you talk a lot of good sense in this thread which is why you are no doubt coming in for a fair bit of flack - don't let it get you down [i am sure it wont!]

 

You are absolutely right with "what crisis?" When you think of the mess that the present government inherited and where we are now, my one real fear is that Labour will get in next year and undo all the progress that has been made - I am sure too that it would have been swifter without the millstone of the Lib Dem coalition partners.

 

As someone else has said, Farage reminds me too of the archtypical slimy and not very good salesman - we have all come across them, happy to pump out any drivel and half truths to make sale.

 

Yes, UKIP will probably do quite well in the European elections - it is not a big deal and then they will slide back to being the marginal nonentities that they are in the General Election next year - it happened last time and it will happen again in 2015. The one fear is that Labour will win a majority by default with some natural Conservative voters being tempted by Farage's scaremongering and lies.

 

The line up of weirdos and crackpots who may become UKIP MEPS will show the party as it really is.

 

One other point that strikes me is the age profile of the majority of the UKIP supporters - the golden oldies - who will inflict a disaster on our country if they get their way and which the younger generations - not them - will have to live with in the future.

 

One final point on the Clegg v Farage debate last night. It is claimed that Farage "won" - so what if he did? Clegg is a lightweight who will sink into obscurity come 2015, along with the Lib Dems. It means nothing!

 

You mention weirdos and crackpots and do not justify any of it.

 

If you want a list of weirdos and crackpots from the two main parties, then the page would soon become full!

 

- and then you have the gall to slag off the golden oldies who have seen it all before, and quite rightly learned not to trust politicians and their promises.

 

As many have said the EU started off as a trading agreement, and then the politicians got hold of it, with the promise for their personal advancement; monetary gain, and to become major players in yet another club funded by Joe Public.

 

When Joe Public eventually saw through the scam, they are then labelled as weirdos and intellectually challenged.

 

Do I worry if Nigel fades into the background when his policies have been adopted - not a bit!

 

Apparently you have not noticed that we have UK welfare and education systems creaking at the seams, and the EEC want free access to our system that is obviously far better than the less fortunate other EEC signatories who want to come here.

 

How many more city equivalents do they want us to build to house the incomers?

 

Read some history sir - you have a lot to learn.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Sorry Tightchoke, I can't read.

 

I'm quite aware of that!

[Penelope]

' between n and t, and one less space between '*** and I.

 

All in good humour by the way.

 

Sorry tightass I cant read.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Penelope

[Gordon R]

manc-munsters - when you start having a pop at someone's grammar etc., it might help if you got it right.

 

You didn't.

[Fisherman Mike]

 

I'm quite aware of that!

come on where's your sense of humour...you must admit that was quite funny !

[TIGHTCHOKE]

come on where's your sense of humour...you must admit that was quite funny !

 

 

Mike, some of your recent posts have been really quite poor!

[Fisherman Mike]

Fisherman Mike - you talk a lot of good sense in this thread which is why you are no doubt coming in for a fair bit of flack - don't let it get you down [i am sure it wont!]

 

You are absolutely right with "what crisis?" When you think of the mess that the present government inherited and where we are now, my one real fear is that Labour will get in next year and undo all the progress that has been made - I am sure too that it would have been swifter without the millstone of the Lib Dem coalition partners.

 

As someone else has said, Farage reminds me too of the archtypical slimy and not very good salesman - we have all come across them, happy to pump out any drivel and half truths to make sale.

 

Yes, UKIP will probably do quite well in the European elections - it is not a big deal and then they will slide back to being the marginal nonentities that they are in the General Election next year - it happened last time and it will happen again in 2015. The one fear is that Labour will win a majority by default with some natural Conservative voters being tempted by Farage's scaremongering and lies.

 

The line up of weirdos and crackpots who may become UKIP MEPS will show the party as it really is.

 

One other point that strikes me is the age profile of the majority of the UKIP supporters - the golden oldies - who will inflict a disaster on our country if they get their way and which the younger generations - not them - will have to live with in the future.

 

One final point on the Clegg v Farage debate last night. It is claimed that Farage "won" - so what if he did? Clegg is a lightweight who will sink into obscurity come 2015, along with the Lib Dems. It means nothing!

Thanks,

 

You've exposed yourself to some acidic post now though don't you know. How dare you have a contrary opinion to Good King Nigel... go and wash your mouth out and sit in the corner..

 

I feel a bit like Henry Fonda in 12 Angry men ...if he hadn't stood up for what he believed in they would have hung that poor black kid...

[Fisherman Mike]

 

 

Mike, some of your recent posts have been really quite poor!

Why...because I'm not a fan of UKIP ? Fundamentally that's what it boils down to...I hate to burst your and everyone else's bubble but neither are 80% of the voting populous. This is indeed a democracy and nobody is going to ram their political agenda continually down my throat...and on a Shooting and Countryside forum of all places.

 

That's all from me on this thread.. although I'm confident someone will post one more derogatory comment.... 10, 9, 8, 7, ........

[Fuji Shooter]

[drnobsac]

[Gimlet]

Good point from Cameron (via the BBC):

 

"PM David Cameron has criticised both his deputy, the Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg, and UKIP leader Nigel Farage, after their televised EU debate. "The problem with this debate is that both of the people taking part actually have quite extreme views," the PM said."

 

An example of the latest catch-all political put-down intended to close debate: if your views are different to mine it is because you are an extremist. Only I am moderate and reasonable; only my views need be discussed.

Cameron would make a very good Eurocrat. He seems to have done the training course.

 

The EU is not a superpower and never will be, Clegg got his job through default as part of the coalition agreement. He is a Tory but is trying have a conscience. His educational background is almost identical to Cameron's.

 

None of the 3 main party leaders have ever "worked" in the real world as most of us know it.

 

Happy to trade as a bloc of nations but central political control is driving nationalism in many EU countries. To me it's a very mild form of communism.

 

Pulling out of the EU though creates a whole host of problems. We are breaking a treaty that we knowingly signed up to.

 

Agree with all but the last sentence. Moving house or changing jobs can create a host of difficulties but that is no reason to put off doing so when it is to your advantage in the long term .

I don't accept that we knowingly signed up for treaties. All EU treaties to which the UK is signatory have been signed in our name without consultation or democratic mandate. Not a single treaty that I can think of has ever been the subject of an election campaign. In my view they should be illegal without mandate by referendum since by law no government may bind the hand of its successor.

Theoretically, every UK citizen who knows where to look may learn the substance of EU treaties in advance of ratification. But we shouldn't have to look. The people we employ to administer our Nation's affairs should act with the utmost transparency and go out of their way to keep us informed, which they have all signally failed to do when it comes to our not dealings with the EU. And in any case, not everyone does know where to look; not everyone would understand what they found if they did; and if we had managed to access the draft legislation and understood it, not one of us has been given the democratic opportunity to register either approval or dissent. That is an extraordinarily devious, evasive and downright dishonest way to conduct the business of government.

Gordon Brown, knowing this to be the case, tried to suppress coverage of the signing of the Lisbon treaty (presumably because he knew how damaging it would be to Britain's interests but wished to leave a poisoned challis for his successor after an election he knew he would lose) and even tried to sneak in late for the siging in the hope that no-one would notice, thereby drawing even more attention to himself. Which proves what a stupid person he was.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Gimlet

[manc-munsters]

manc-munsters - when you start having a pop at someone's grammar etc., it might help if you got it right.

 

You didn't.

 

I didn't claim to be grammatically correct. I simply stated that if someone was going to bring a lack of education in to the debate, they should probably check their own posts first.

 

I doubt any of us are grammatically perfect, but it is good to see you entering in to the spirit of things by following a full stop with a comma, and then no capital letter

 

May be everyone should check their facts before wading in

Edited April 3, 2014 by manc-munsters

[Gordon R]

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

[manc-munsters]

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

 

 

Hence the use of the word

 

 

"everyone"

 

pronoun

1. 1.

   every person.

   

[Gordon R]

Stop patronising. It doesn't make you appear very bright.

[Grandalf]

Amazing how a good political debate on PW can drop to the level of Prime Minister's Question Time.

A lot of potential future MP's on this forum.

Can we get back to the topic please gentlemen?

[old rooster]

 

An example of the latest catch-all political put-down intended to close debate: if your views are different to mine it is because you are an extremist. Only I am moderate and reasonable; only my views need be discussed.

Cameron would make a very good Eurocrat. He seems to have done the training course.

 

 

Agree with all but the last sentence. Moving house or changing jobs can create a host of difficulties but that is no reason to put off doing so when it is to your advantage in the long term .

I don't accept that we knowingly signed up for treaties. All EU treaties to which the UK is signatory have been signed in our name without consultation or democratic mandate. Not a single treaty that I can think of has ever been the subject of an election campaign. In my view they should be illegal without mandate by referendum since by law no government may bind the hand of its successor.

Theoretically, every UK citizen who knows where to look may learn the substance of EU treaties in advance of ratification. But we shouldn't have to look. The people we employ to administer our Nation's affairs should act with the utmost transparency and go out of their way to keep us informed, which they have all signally failed to do when it comes to our not dealings with the EU. And in any case, not everyone does know where to look; not everyone would understand what they found if they did; and if we had managed to access the draft legislation and understood it, not one of us has been given the democratic opportunity to register either approval or dissent. That is an extraordinarily devious, evasive and downright dishonest way to conduct the business of government.

Gordon Brown, knowing this to be the case, tried to suppress coverage of the signing of the Lisbon treaty (presumably because he knew how damaging it would be to Britain's interests but wished to leave a poisoned challis for his successor after an election he knew he would lose) and even tried to sneak in late for the siging in the hope that no-one would notice, thereby drawing even more attention to himself. Which proves what a stupid person he was.

 

Unfortunately the term democracy actually means the people having the right to elect those who represent them, they vote based on the manifesto of the party they feel will best represent their own views or interests. Once elected those chosen have to get on with things and don't have to get approval for everything from they subsequently do from the electorate.

 

Most things that get done during any particular term in office can be undone or reversed by the party elected at the following election but unfortunately it seems that things like signing our sovereignty away to an autocratic organisation such as the EU can't with any degree of ease.

 

I doubt we will get a straightforward "in out" referendum, it will be another farcical episode as far too many snouts are in far too many truffle filled troughs.

Edited April 3, 2014 by old rooster