Dont cap my benefits.

[Gimlet]

Your post makes real sense but not sure what the alternative are other than to let the housing market stagnate until the entry level youngsters catch up. That then has a knock on effect on retail, the building trades etc

 

I'm not sure either, but solutions must be found because youngsters never will catch up. The cost of living is rising, the cost of government is rising, taxes are rising and wages of the lowest paid are falling. And all of that is going to get worse when interest rates and inflation rise. A dramatic and permanent fall in house prices is needed to place home ownership within reach of a wider section of society and thereby stimulate affordable demand. The economy's heavy lifting should be done by exports, which certainly means expanding our horizons far beyond the economically declining EU, which our membership of it forbids: Instead the government, like it must be said, successive predecessors, is relying for that task on a debt fuelled and over inflated housing market, and is helping it along by stoking prices with money borrowed from future generations. All this is great news for big developers who throw up ghastly, dreadful quality dog kennels, knowing that the market is not reactive and cannot punish them for it. No wonder they're sitting on land banks and have the planners in their pockets. The Big Construction mafia win and everyone else loses. The government is much to blame because it is making the same mistake as its predecessors in believing that growth comes from consumption rather than production and borrowing to stimulation that consumption will somehow allow debt to transmogrify into surplus. It won't.

The Government is borrowing money it hasn't got to lend to people who can't afford it to buy cheap and extremely nasty houses at artificially inflated cost. If retail, construction or any other sector are relying of this kind of cycle for survival our economic model is broken and we will have learned nothing from the Brown disaster.

How this can be rebalanced with the least possible pain, I don't honestly know. But I'm certain present government policy will not achieve it and will actually make things worse. You find solutions by looking for them in the right places having first accurately defined the problem, not by pursuing short-term thinking driven by a five year electoral cycle. But that is what we've got.

[aris]

What will bring house prices down is increasing supply. Planning permission for new-builds should expire after 12 months - that may spur some of the house builders to stop sitting on land which they already has planning permission.

 

Perhaps the UK needs a new city or two built.

[islandgun]

Sounds like a good plan aris

 

What will bring house prices down is increasing supply. Planning permission for new-builds should expire after 12 months - that may spur some of the house builders to stop sitting on land which they already has planning permission.

 

Perhaps the UK needs a new city or two built.

gimlet I'm far from being a sycophant but if you want to start your own political party I reckon you would get a few supporters on here

[Fisherman Mike]

House prices are simply related to supply and demand the basic concept of economics that's how it is and always has been. The Big developers are not making huge sums these days as building costs have risen so much the gap between income and expenditure is smaller now than it ever has been.

 

Some housing stock is even sold at a loss.

 

House prices are certainly not artificially inflated by developers in the main.

 

Some people watch too much television.

 

I have 37 years experience building both Speculative and LA Housing and I know exactly what it costs to build a house to the last nail.

[aris]

House prices are simply related to supply and demand the basic concept of economics that's how it is and always has been. The Big developers are not making huge sums these days as building costs have risen so much the gap between income and expenditure is smaller now than it ever has been.

 

Some housing stock is even sold at a loss.

 

House prices are certainly not artificially inflated by developers in the main.

 

Some people watch too much television.

 

I have 37 years experience building both Speculative and LA Housing and I know exactly what it costs to build a house to the last nail.

 

Very interesting. When I look at the new rubbish new builds that go up, and the prices they charge - I could only assume they are coining it. Where exactly is the majority of the cost with new builds then - materials, labour, land, red tape? I would have thought that building several homes on a large-ish piece of land would bring the overall price down considerably too.

[henry d]

Although there is a lot of doom and gloom in amongst this I believe there is also hope for some people. Approximately 30 years ago council housing was being snapped up by those who could not afford, normally, to buy a house and there are still a lot of these that are occupied by the original owners. The children of these owner-occupiers are going to be handsomely rewarded.

[Fisherman Mike]

 

Very interesting. When I look at the new rubbish new builds that go up, and the prices they charge - I could only assume they are coining it. Where exactly is the majority of the cost with new builds then - materials, labour, land, red tape? I would have thought that building several homes on a large-ish piece of land would bring the overall price down considerably too.

It’s a combination of many and all of those factors; Raw material costs and the power resources used to manufacture the materials, Imported timber costs, Fuel, labour costs and the copious amounts of autocracy which has to be dealt with these days in terms of Health and Safety, Legal and sustainability Issues relating to Co2 reduction initiatives. One of the biggest costs which many would be developers forget to factor in is the cost of getting the statutory services to the site which can be massive.. Even when the project is completed the costs are not cut off you have to consider Sales and Marketing costs and conveyance charges …the list goes on. Gone are the days when you could develop using the third rule. A third for the land, a third to build and a third profit. If Most Major house builders these days are making 4-7% after all expenses I bet the major shareholders would be jumping up and down on the board room table. !

House Building is a true indicator of the state of the economy and has such a knock on effect on other industries not just directly related to Building….flooring, fittings, furnishings, consumer electrical goods, statutory authority employment, landscaping etc. etc. The scale of employment for Britain’s workforce is also utterly underestimated.

Also the cost to build out a 2 bed house for sale on the Open Market and a 2 bed house for social rent or lend lease or shared ownership have surprising parity.

If there were really big sums to be made developing these days I would be doing it myself, believe me.

[Fuji Shooter]

What I get confused about is there are plans to but several thousand houses just outside Stratford upon Avon due to demand. If that's the case why are there currently so many houses for sale in the area?

 

Surely if there was such a great demand all houses curently for sale in the area would be at sealed bids by now.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Freakmode

[Fisherman Mike]

What I get confused about is there are plans to but several thousand houses just outside Stratford upon Avon due to demand. If that's the case why are there currently so many houses for sale in the area?

 

Surely if there was such a great demand all houses curently for sale in the area would be at sealed bids by now.

Simple. Its because existing owners are being unrealistic with their asking prices buoyed up by greedy estate agents that don't know jack **** about property values !

[Fisherman Mike]

Although there is a lot of doom and gloom in amongst this I believe there is also hope for some people. Approximately 30 years ago council housing was being snapped up by those who could not afford, normally, to buy a house and there are still a lot of these that are occupied by the original owners. The children of these owner-occupiers are going to be handsomely rewarded.

Quite right...some would call it capitalism of course because they missed the train...others would call it sound economic policy in dealing with generally delpidated public housing stock which would otherwise have to be maintained at the tax payers expense..

 

People seem to forget that Local Authority maintenance budgets for property improvements and maintenance runs into 100,s of millions perhaps even more.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Fisherman Mike

[Fisherman Mike]

 

Very interesting. When I look at the new rubbish new builds that go up, and the prices they charge - I could only assume they are coining it. Where exactly is the majority of the cost with new builds then - materials, labour, land, red tape? I would have thought that building several homes on a large-ish piece of land would bring the overall price down considerably too.

Why do you assume that they are rubbish ?...The Planning and Building Regulations, NHBC, Code for Sustainable Homes, and BSI Building Standards et al are the most comprehensive and demanding house building criteria in the world.

 

 

Again that very much depends on how much the land was bought for.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Fisherman Mike

[Lampwick]

Why do you assume that they are rubbish ?...The Planning and Building Regulations, NHBC, Code for Sustainable Homes, and BSI Building Standards et al are the most comprehensive and demanding house building criteria in the world.


Your great for a laugh!

Most new homes are ****! Paper thin walls, cheap finishes etc. The regs aren't a measure of quality.

A friend bought a new pad from a well know developer!!! You could hear next doors upstairs loo flushing in his lounge! They were also frequent cuddlers!

[kdubya]

Quite right...some would call it capitalism of course because they missed the train...others would call it sound economic policy in dealing with generally delpidated public housing stock which would otherwise have to be maintained at the tax payers expense..

 

People seem to forget that Local Authority maintenance budgets for property improvements and maintenance runs into 100,s of millions perhaps even more.

And all this time I thought a council having its own housing stock.in which it housed those who chose, or could not afford to buy their own property, and which was maintained and supplemented via the rent it received was a far better option than handing over millions upon millions with no return whatsoever to landlords who put it into their back pocket,s all this time not realising that the property offered by the private renters was much much better :lol: than the dilapidated offerings eagerly snapped up by those who strangely thought "I want To buy this ****hole" rather than have my rent paid for me and have a lovely private rented dwelling,seems your view of the world does not stop at the horizon, it stops past the end of your nose.

 

KW

[aris]

Why do you assume that they are rubbish ?...The Planning and Building Regulations, NHBC, Code for Sustainable Homes, and BSI Building Standards et al are the most comprehensive and demanding house building criteria in the world.

 

While they may be built to a spec, they are often built to a price too. The finishes are very poor. Fitted bathrooms and kitchens, just bog standard stuff. Unless you've been to countries like the US or Germany where people demand quality, it is difficult for most to judge.

 

Not to mention when you walk into these places, you feel like you've been transported to Lilliput.

 

Personally, i'd never buy a new-build unless I built it myself to my own specification.

[Gimlet]

House prices are simply related to supply and demand the basic concept of economics that's how it is and always has been. The Big developers are not making huge sums these days as building costs have risen so much the gap between income and expenditure is smaller now than it ever has been.

 

Some housing stock is even sold at a loss.

 

House prices are certainly not artificially inflated by developers in the main.

 

Some people watch too much television.

 

I have 37 years experience building both Speculative and LA Housing and I know exactly what it costs to build a house to the last nail.

 

House prices are not simply related to supply and demand. At least not to current supply and demand: if only they were. You miss my point. They have been driven up in large part by past periods of overly cheap debt and they haven't come down again when the easy credit has been withdrawn because successive governments have feared for their short term electoral prospects if they permitted such a thing. They have chosen to sacrifice the security of future generations to buy themselves another five minutes in the sun.

I didn't say prices were artificially inflated by developers. I said they had been inflated by irresponsible lending in the past which the Government is seeking to replicate to stoke the economy in preparation for the next election which will not solve the basic structural problem.

 

However, I have also have long years of experience in the building trade and I too know how much it costs to build a house because I've priced enough of them and built them and seen the balance sheet at the end of it, not because I've watched too much television. And because my experience is on the tools I know that the standard of modern domestic housing is utter, utter *****. They are embarrassing to work on. I also know that big developers and materials manufacturers are powerful and well funded political lobbyists. You point to the inflationary burden of bureaucracy, health and safety regulation, fuel, power, environmental legislation and legal costs. And you are right to do so. But these are politically imposed surcharges that could be greatly reduced if the will was there and if the sovereign authority was there since many of these costs are driven by EU legislation, which in turn is driven increasingly by corporate lobbyists. Materials manufacturers in particular have a powerful influence in building regulations through their lobbying activities. The resultant regulation is neither the most stringent nor the most effective except at hampering small and self-builders and promoting very wealthy big businesses and rash of modern housing stock that is overpriced and substandard to the point of being a disgrace.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Gimlet

[goodo123]

So overall:-

The government and other public "companies" charge too much for there services due to too much red tape, inflated salaries and too many UN productive job creation.

 

The public who bought there houses pre 1990 are gready and want a huge profit from their investment (there house)

 

The banks are gready and constantly passing their problems to the tax payer.

 

People who are self employed constantly fiddle there books to pay next to no tax which means they get a better lifestyle than they are entitled thus causing the regular tax payer to pay more.

 

The eu are setting policys to even out country's wealth which is only beneficial to the poorer ones.

 

The amount of immigration to this contry is putting pressure on the economy.

 

Overall I think the main issue is the structure is far more complicated than it needs to be. There are far too many UN productive jobs which simply serve to leach off the others. The banking system favors those with money, even if attained by default. Rather than simplify government taxation and benefit systems the government decides to meet everyones "needs" to gain more votes, causing more UN productive jobs. People who have "little" in this country are probably very rich compared to other country, giving a inflated sensation of entitlement. Overall if you work hard and follow the rules you get screwed. Effort put in to reward has become very unbalanced, unfair and misty.

[Fisherman Mike]

And all this time I thought a council having its own housing stock.in which it housed those who chose, or could not afford to buy their own property, and which was maintained and supplemented via the rent it received was a far better option than handing over millions upon millions with no return whatsoever to landlords who put it into their back pocket,s all this time not realising that the property offered by the private renters was much much better :lol: than the dilapidated offerings eagerly snapped up by those who strangely thought "I want To buy this ****hole" rather than have my rent paid for me and have a lovely private rented dwelling,seems your view of the world does not stop at the horizon, it stops past the end of your nose.

 

KW

Envy...its a terrible thing...obviously you missed the train too.

Why do you assume that they are rubbish ?...The Planning and Building Regulations, NHBC, Code for Sustainable Homes, and BSI Building Standards et al are the most comprehensive and demanding house building criteria in the world.

 

 

Your great for a laugh!

 

Most new homes are ****! Paper thin walls, cheap finishes etc. The regs aren't a measure of quality.

 

A friend bought a new pad from a well know developer!!! You could hear next doors upstairs loo flushing in his lounge! They were also frequent cuddlers!

Then he shouldn't hesitate to get the NHBC in to do a noise survey and have it rectified.

[islandgun]

To do with house ownership and it being a barometer of the wealth of the nation, i googled wikipidia and europe housing,

 

Owning houses %

UK 71%

Eastern Europeans are the highest as a group, with Romania at 96%

Lowest Germany Netherlands France with Germany at 46%

Spain and Greece are both higher than the UK with Spain at 83%

2007 data

 

I have no idea of the real significance of the above but I find it interesting that those with the highest ownership % are countries I've assumed were the poorest, and the richest countries are the lowest % of house owners,

[kdubya]

Envy...its a terrible thing...obviously you missed the train too.

 

Envy I could probably by and sell you,you really do not have the faintest idea do you, you make unsubstantiated assumption after assumption, missed the train? nope was on it,didnt make it right though.

 

KW

[Thunderbird]

There's only one real way to settle this, and it's going to come down to either pistols or epees. Perhaps if you gentlemen would like to appoint Seconds, who can then contact each other and make the necessary arrangements, you know, choose weapons and agree upon a nice discreet location?

 

Epees might be a bit easier to come by nowadays what with Section 5 and all…

[kdubya]

There's only one real way to settle this, and it's going to come down to either pistols or epees. Perhaps if you gentlemen would like to appoint Seconds, who can then contact each other and make the necessary arrangements, you know, choose weapons and agree upon a nice discreet location?

 

Epees might be a bit easier to come by nowadays what with Section 5 and all…

as long as he wears a Maggie mask, but then again he would be run through before I had picked my chosen weapon.

 

KW

[Thunderbird]

Just thinking about it, Hartlepool and the Cotswolds are quite a distance apart. Perhaps it could be settled by online gaming, I'm not too familiar with this but something like Call of Duty?

 

Just throwing it out there

 

 

[Fisherman Mike]

Envy I could probably by and sell you,you really do not have the faintest idea do you, you make unsubstantiated assumption after assumption, missed the train? nope was on it,didnt make it right though.

 

KW

Assumption...I think not... you are just a confrontational extremist with some serious psychological issues.

 

Perhaps its nipple deprivation or some other stigma in your past...you can get help you know and possible on the NHS.

 

Hey guess what not everybody agrees with your contradictory views. Well I hate to burst your bubble but that's life get over it. !

as long as he wears a Maggie mask, but then again he would be run through before I had picked my chosen weapon.

 

KW

As long as I don't wear a monkey suit and shout Touché I should be quite safe...

[kdubya]

Assumption...I think not... you are just a confrontational extremist with some serious psychological issues.

 

Perhaps its nipple deprivation or some other stigma in your past...you can get help you know and possible on the NHS.

 

Hey guess what not everybody agrees with your contradictory views. Well I hate to burst your bubble but that's life get over it. !

As long as I don't wear a monkey suit and shout Touché I should be quite safe...

I dont want to spoil a genuine thread so I wont reply to you further.

 

KW

[Gimlet]

To do with house ownership and it being a barometer of the wealth of the nation, i googled wikipidia and europe housing,

 

Owning houses %

UK 71%

Eastern Europeans are the highest as a group, with Romania at 96%

Lowest Germany Netherlands France with Germany at 46%

Spain and Greece are both higher than the UK with Spain at 83%

2007 data

 

I have no idea of the real significance of the above but I find it interesting that those with the highest ownership % are countries I've assumed were the poorest, and the richest countries are the lowest % of house owners,

 

Those findings don't surprise me at all. Germany, the wealthiest nation in Europe by a country mile makes its money from export manufacturing not domestic property dabbling. Playing the property market doesn't interest Germans in the least. There is no need to pretend to be Sarah Beeny when you've got a proper job that turns a surplus. Germans are also Europe's best savers. They prefer to save their money than spend it paying interest to a mortgage company. Their rents are affordable and the quality of their new build is vastly better than ours.

Spain, need we remind ourselves, like Ireland, bankrupted itself trying to build its way out of debt with borrowed cash, just as George, Dave, Vince and Nick would like to do here. Now they've got a country ruined by a vast over-supply of hideous and shoddy buildings which are empty because no-one can afford to buy them: they're properly, completely, incurably broke and they've suffered a comprehensive brain-drain as most of their young people whom they need to rebuild their economy have fled to become waiters in tapas bars in London and Bournemouth where Dave and little George will house them all with money they will borrow from your children, and the Germans will sell them the tools to do it and go home to sleep peacefully in their warm, quiet, well built, low rent houses and dream of holidays and nice cars.....

Edited April 14, 2014 by Gimlet