Inclusion of the Greylag Goose onto the General License

[kent]

Good morning Kent, The WLC did not come to a conclusion at the meeting held during the lunch break at the Wildfowling Conference due to not having a full turn out of members so a e-mail was sent to all to be replied to during the following week, as I understand it not all members replied but dont forget some sit on council so will have been able to express their views at that meeting. I got in touch at a later date to see the outcome of that e-mail sent to all and the position was that about a 7 to 5 against using a GL to be able to shoot Greys and 6 to 4 against using a GL to destroy Grey and Mallard nests and eggs. So it seems it was approx a 60 / 40 vote .Also as I understand it no written recomdation was put to council just a verbal one from the members who sit on both...As I sit on the WLC and made my opposition to the change in status for Greys and mallard perfectly clear and I feel spoke vigorously for their to be no change.. But we have to remember that Council represents a lot of interests so if one is out voted then that is democracy in action! No different than at my clubs meetings, a show of hands decides!! But the important thing is that a lot of background information needs to be available for a fair vote to take place... And I must say Anser2 has a large depth of knowledge on this, in fact probably by the accounts he has made, greater than Basc them. One other point is that the number of Birds and eggs/nests destroyed by the use of SL has not been confirmed as what was done or what was allowed to be done...Did 90,000 eggs get destroyed or were 90,000 the limit by SL and did 15,000 greys get killed or was that the SL limit ? Were I help control Brent’s by SL we have a 40 bird limit on the SL this is not always reached ,If it is we then reapply if we need to control more which I am led to believe is just a phone call and a letter to confirm .. I am a member of the Wildfowling Forum and have kept my posts to their so far ... Hope this is of help?

 

Riptide

Thank you for that info. I have also shot on SL and never found it difficult after the first grant

[kent]

Good evening IEH,

 

The consultation on GL is about agricultural damage and human health issues so is broader than wildfowling, hence the reason not just the WLC were consulted on this issue, all points had to be taken in the whole by Council.

So is it BASC Or The British association of health and farming

 

As we say on the web page on the BASC site, our support is not about reducing the population as a whole, and certainly is not intended in any way to have a negative impact on those who shoot geese on the foreshore or inland within the season, its about allowing farmers and others to control when needed with the minimum of fuss.

So reducing the population we have been working to build will have no effect - Err

 

Lets remember that in the period of 2005-2011 over 90,000 eggs have been destroyed and a further 15,000 greylags killed by shooting or injection. Yet the population is on the increase.

We keep talking about counts and how they can be applied a goose also cannot reach sexual maturity in a year like most birds and is has but one brood when it does finally reach that stage

 

There would have to be a massive explosion in people wanting to shoot greylags during the summer or early autumn to add significantly to the number already being culled, and as I have said before I can see a massive appetite for this - can you?

 

Begs again the question of why even support it and contradicts your earlier remarks that its needed

 

As to listening to the advice of others Kent - I understand what you are saying, but remember this issue is not just about wildfowling, and Council had to take its decision based on all the information it was presented with - how many times have any of us had conflicting advice on an issue, balanced up what we've been advised and then made a decision?

 

Oh, I never quit and I don't think you will find many of us in this who will give in at the first hurdle, its not in the nature of the beast. The issue if not about wildfowling goes against BASCs own articles and memorandoms because it mentions farming and health no place Nor helping NE cut costs or supporting Ca'Moron in his "red tape challenge"

 

Anyway, please remember that from day 1 we have been encouraging members to respond as well, but of course you don't have to take my advice.....

 

Your advice carries no weight as BASC represents so many shooters it represents quite a bit

 

David

[kent]

so everyone where do we go from here, is there a way to make our collective voice heard ?

The AGM 14th june Cast our votes in return for the outstanding lack of support we have got from the Council and "any other business"

[gingerblayney]

Well guys, sorry I'm a bit late getting in on this topic but had to join Forum before I could comment. Any of you who were at the Wildfowling Conference will know that I pressed Richard Ali "ver hard" (as Kenzie Thorpe would say), to discuss this very matter with all the wildfowlers at the Conference. He refused. We didn't quite come to blows about it, but it was getting close. This refusal, seemingly showing BASC sitting in an ivory tower, is the reason we are in such a mess with BASC once again.They had all the representatives, from many of the wildfowling clubs in the country in front of them, yet refused to avail themselves of our views, on a situation that affects every wildfowler in this country. Personally I found it insulting. I could already forsee many of the situations that so many fowlers have commented on in the in the above postings. That was what was in my mind for the discussion. I will write more when I have read more of the many, many postings, but I will leave you with one thought that is troubling me. Any bird (or beast) on General Licence can only be taken under the terms of that Licence. ie pigeons cannot be shot for "sport" only for crop protection. By the same reading Greylags, once on the GL will also not be allowed to be shot for "sport" but only crop protection, environmental or health. That would almost certainly be the end of foreshore Greylag fowling, especially if NE and the anti's get their teeth into it. Richard Ali has assured me that they could still be shot for "sport in season", but I have severe doubts!!!!!! I have also asked BASC to list me the benefits that putting greylags on GL will have for wildfowling. I am still awaiting a reply. Ginger

[kent]

Well guys, sorry I'm a bit late getting in on this topic but had to join Forum before I could comment. Any of you who were at the Wildfowling Conference will know that I pressed Richard Ali "ver hard" (as Kenzie Thorpe would say), to discuss this very matter with all the wildfowlers at the Conference. He refused. We didn't quite come to blows about it, but it was getting close. This refusal, seemingly showing BASC sitting in an ivory tower, is the reason we are in such a mess with BASC once again.They had all the representatives, from many of the wildfowling clubs in the country in front of them, yet refused to avail themselves of our views, on a situation that affects every wildfowler in this country. Personally I found it insulting. I could already forsee many of the situations that so many fowlers have commented on in the in the above postings. That was what was in my mind for the discussion. I will write more when I have read more of the many, many postings, but I will leave you with one thought that is troubling me. Any bird (or beast) on General Licence can only be taken under the terms of that Licence. ie pigeons cannot be shot for "sport" only for crop protection. By the same reading Greylags, once on the GL will also not be allowed to be shot for "sport" but only crop protection, environmental or health. That would almost certainly be the end of foreshore Greylag fowling, especially if NE and the anti's get their teeth into it. Richard Ali has assured me that they could still be shot for "sport in season", but I have severe doubts!!!!!! I have also asked BASC to list me the benefits that putting greylags on GL will have for wildfowling. I am still awaiting a reply. Ginger

 

Heck, I take your point. Someone just told me of a Canada shot in carrying out Wildfowling for sport / food on the marsh. It was ringed and the BTO didn't record it as such but instead shot as pest control. Glad to have you with us now, thanks for joining

[Grandalf]

Thank you for your efforts to join us.

Welcome comments.

Grandalf

[misser]

I have spoken to quite a few wildfowlers from a several of the north west clubs and am yet to find one that agrees with the issue....and as for mallard that just adds insult to injury...in my opinion (and a lot of others I think) definitely a backward step....haven't read all the posts so might look a fool but anyone know how the countryside alliance view the situation?...atb

[misser]

wecome gingerblaney and well said...

[TWAG]

Wildfowling conference

Firstly I would like to say it is only right and proper to have a detailed briefing before having an informed debate (Which was not available due to time constraints.) To bring this complex matter of the general licenses regarding Canada geese Mallard. As well as lead shot and several other items up in the middle of the presentations was not reasonable. That is probably why you didn’t get the time in the afternoon. Everybody deserves the right of due and timely notice and the benefit of an agenda detailing the items of presentation and debate.

Questions.

1.What would you have done if the conference agreed to the Gen licenses and disagree with your views.

2.Did you not ask the staff or the Chairman for this to be debated before announcing it ?

3.Would you have accepted the decision of the room?

[gingerblayney]

I have to say that as an attendee of the annual National Wildfowling Conference I rather expected BASC to be discussing the burning issues of the day, and to have the full info at their fingertips. Why else do i pay for such a large staffed organisation, so don't give me twaddle about "time constraints". It was important enough for you to call an emergency lunch time meeting of the WLC!

 

It was not in the middle of the presentations, it was at the end ------or at least before the auction, and I don't think that there was a fowler in the room who would not have given up another hour of their time to debate this important matter.

 

If you haven't got the sense to do it, let me make a suggestion that next year you make an agenda item -- Discussion--- as is quite normal with Conferences. Then perhaps i might feel that i haven't wasted my time and money attending a Conference that seems to have scant regard for its members views.

 

As to your rather strange questions.

 

1. My views are only the views of one fowler, though I was representing my club. If Conference had agreed with BASC over the issuing of GL licences having heard arguments for and against, then Basc would be absolutely correct in upholding their views. Sadly, this was not the case. Our views were not asked, which is the reason I see over 300 postings mainly asking why BASC got it so wrong.

2.See above. I didn't announce it. I asked for it to be debated because BASC had not had the sense to debate it..

3.The room cannot make a decision, members can only inform BASC of their views. It's NE who will make the decision.

I would rightly accept the majority view of other fowlers, if only we had been asked before BASC made THEIR decision.

 

 

And bye the bye, I notice someone from BASC pointing out that this is a larger issue than just wildfowling, with farmers and crop protection to be considered. I don't see that many farmers being BASC members.

Isn't there something in your constitution about supporting your members, ie the guys who pay your wages, who had taken the time and expense of attending the Conference and who were sat there in front of you.

Could you please detail the benefit to shooting of this move. When I last looked i thought you were a "Shooting and Conservation" organisation.

 

Finally before I use the Freedom of Information Act perhaps BASC would care to tell me who exactly it was in the last years who applied for Special Licences to ***** thousands of duck eggs, and inject or kill thousands of geese. And who is pushing this year for a GL. I'll lay you a bet right now that it wasn't farmers ---or airfields. Do tell!

If you don't, and it turns out to be WWT or RSPB, you will indeed have egg on your face.

 

 

[panoma1]

Ginger, With reference to the last paragraph in your latest posting (No 310) please see posting No 228!

[strongbow]

Not sure how many of you saw this last year,

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/417961/EXCLUSIVE-Charity-wildlife-cull-to-save-the-exotic-species

 

even if the numbers are taken with a pinch of salt, it might start to shed some light the hidden agenda.

 

PS I do like the bit where WWT say "that in many cases it is legally obliged to kill the birds because their centres are on or lie next to Sites of Special Scientific Interest." !!!

[kent]

I don't see the RSPB taking this opinion nationally, I see it as NE and its connection via the council. Or just plain ignorance to the facts and feelings of the membership of BASC at its head, perhaps they thought we might like some summer shooting, sounds daft but not as mad as recommending our quarry become basically vermin.

 

The RSPB have suffered enough from Avery, shooting deer on its reserves etc. To follow that up with the mass slaughter of Mallard nests (an amber list duck) and the Greylag being shot on crop when it had dependant young? How might their main membership see that one?

 

But who knows its all so upside down

Wildfowling conference

Firstly I would like to say it is only right and proper to have a detailed briefing before having an informed debate (Which was not available due to time constraints.) To bring this complex matter of the general licenses regarding Canada geese Mallard. As well as lead shot and several other items up in the middle of the presentations was not reasonable. That is probably why you didn’t get the time in the afternoon. Everybody deserves the right of due and timely notice and the benefit of an agenda detailing the items of presentation and debate.

Questions.

1.What would you have done if the conference agreed to the Gen licenses and disagree with your views.

2.Did you not ask the staff or the Chairman for this to be debated before announcing it ?

3.Would you have accepted the decision of the room?

Seeing you are a new member do you mind telling us who you really are as we know the other chap

[Penelope]

They were culled under special licence which was freely available, so no need to change to general licence.

 

Not sure how many of you saw this last year,

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/417961/EXCLUSIVE-Charity-wildlife-cull-to-save-the-exotic-species

 

even if the numbers are taken with a pinch of salt, it might start to shed some light the hidden agenda.

 

PS I do like the bit where WWT say "that in many cases it is legally obliged to kill the birds because their centres are on or lie next to Sites of Special Scientific Interest." !!!

[misser]

the wwt have been involved in such practices for quite a while...costs money to feed mallard....why not sell the ducklings to local shoots...sorry, that stopped quite a while ago...all off the record of course....interesting if anyone would ever admit to such practices...all that glitters is definitely not gold....most things are monetary driven

[Big Mat]

Wildfowling conference

Firstly I would like to say it is only right and proper to have a detailed briefing before having an informed debate (Which was not available due to time constraints.) To bring this complex matter of the general licenses regarding Canada geese Mallard. As well as lead shot and several other items up in the middle of the presentations was not reasonable. That is probably why you didn’t get the time in the afternoon. Everybody deserves the right of due and timely notice and the benefit of an agenda detailing the items of presentation and debate.

Questions.

1.What would you have done if the conference agreed to the Gen licenses and disagree with your views.

2.Did you not ask the staff or the Chairman for this to be debated before announcing it ?

3.Would you have accepted the decision of the room?

 

Whilst Canadas are an issue, this thread and the current proposal is to do with Greylag. Would you perhaps like to inform us who you are given interesting questions?

[David BASC]

I am not going to go over old ground again, but as a new point has been raised I thought it relevant that I post a response to Gingers concern that geese on GL cant be shot in the wildfowling season.

 

This is simply not the case, of course geese on the GL can be shot in season. Don't believe me? Call NE and ask them to confirm.

 

David

[Terry P]

I am not going to go over old ground again, but as a new point has been raised I thought it relevant that I post a response to Gingers concern that geese on GL cant be shot in the wildfowling season.

 

This is simply not the case, of course geese on the GL can be shot in season. Don't believe me? Call NE and ask them to confirm.

 

David

I'm sure they can David, but can they legally be shot for sport once on the GL, if so then they are different to woodies etc that cannot. We would have to wait and see how its worded on the GL before we could take the risk.

[Grandalf]

David,

Thanks for coming back and talking to us again.

You can see how very important this matter is to the fowling community. It is not going to go away.

You are in danger of loosing one hell of a lot of members.

The question is simple - Is BASC going to review its position on this crucial decision or are they sticking to their decision to support greylags going on the GL?

Grandalf

alias Ben Symonds BASC member No 0035760X

[David BASC]

Terry, Yes I am sure that legally they can, if not then those who oppose us would have been having a field day targeting wildfowlers and inland shooters taking canadas in season. But as I say if anyone doubts this call NE and ask about canadas.

 

Gandalf, as I have said before, I am in no doubt what so ever as to the feelings of those who have been good enough to post on this forum how they feel about this issue, and I am very keen that we all work together on this as I firmly believe we are stronger together, we may not always agree on every issue perhaps, but we are all brothers and sisters in shooting.

 

I cannot say for sure if Council will revisit the decision it came to, as I do not think there is another Council meeting until after the submission deadline.

 

However as I have said before BASC / I encourage all of you to make you own comment by making your own submissions

 

David

[The Croc]

Welcome aboard Ginger, glad to have your input, and look forward to meeting up again at the DWA day in June, or maybe sooner in light of this fiasco

Brian

[holloway]

David after what has been said over the last few weeks i would have thought that council should be fitting in a special council meeting to discuss it all .To not do so and to ignore it would seem extremely arrogant and out of touch.Its not too late for them to support their members views.

[IEH]

David after what has been said over the last few weeks i would have thought that council should be fitting in a special council meeting to discuss it all .To not do so and to ignore it would seem extremely arrogant and out of touch.Its not too late for them to support their members views.

+1

[The Croc]

David after what has been said over the last few weeks i would have thought that council should be fitting in a special council meeting to discuss it all .To not do so and to ignore it would seem extremely arrogant and out of touch.Its not too late for them to support their members views.

[IEH]

Well guys, sorry I'm a bit late getting in on this topic but had to join Forum before I could comment. Any of you who were at the Wildfowling Conference will know that I pressed Richard Ali "ver hard" (as Kenzie Thorpe would say), to discuss this very matter with all the wildfowlers at the Conference. He refused. We didn't quite come to blows about it, but it was getting close. This refusal, seemingly showing BASC sitting in an ivory tower, is the reason we are in such a mess with BASC once again.They had all the representatives, from many of the wildfowling clubs in the country in front of them, yet refused to avail themselves of our views, on a situation that affects every wildfowler in this country. Personally I found it insulting. I could already forsee many of the situations that so many fowlers have commented on in the in the above postings. That was what was in my mind for the discussion. I will write more when I have read more of the many, many postings, but I will leave you with one thought that is troubling me. Any bird (or beast) on General Licence can only be taken under the terms of that Licence. ie pigeons cannot be shot for "sport" only for crop protection. By the same reading Greylags, once on the GL will also not be allowed to be shot for "sport" but only crop protection, environmental or health. That would almost certainly be the end of foreshore Greylag fowling, especially if NE and the anti's get their teeth into it. Richard Ali has assured me that they could still be shot for "sport in season", but I have severe doubts!!!!!! I have also asked BASC to list me the benefits that putting greylags on GL will have for wildfowling. I am still awaiting a reply. Ginger

and Ginger's attempt to raise this at the Conference was, at least in part, what gave rise to the criticisms of Richard Ali in this thread here http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/278292-wildfowling-conferrnce/

Edited May 8, 2014 by IEH