David BASC Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 BASC membership is growing, Richard is a shooter, not as active as you or me perhaps Any member can stand for election to Council if nominated and seconded by other members, ALL members then have the right to vote for the candidates they want to be elected - details of BASC elections are here: http://basc.org.uk/about-basc/council-and-constitution/basc-council-elections-2014/ David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 David, Please tell us why the council are so determined to stand by their decision in this matter? Are they really going to go to a SGM and a possible motion of no confidence rather than admit they got it wrong? Surely they can reconvene and think again - it would save a hell of a lot of tears and trouble. Just for once admit that the members have got it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy.plinker Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Thanks Kent I get it, somethings ringing a bell now from something I read last year about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Gandalf, As I have said Council set policy, that's what the rules say. Council made their decision based on all the points stated on the BASC web site, and the same position has been adopted by the CA, NGO and Angling Trust, indeed I don't know of any shooting organisation that opposed NE's proposal on this issue I know the Chairman and other members of Council are aware of the points you have all raised on this thread, I have been keeping them briefed. I repeat, this is in no way intended to be detrimental to wildfowling, nor do any of the shooting organisations think it will be. Its about allowing farmers and other landowners greater control over certain species when they become a problem on their land. David Council cannot stop members calling an SGM, again that's in the rules David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derbyduck Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 BASC membership is growing, Richard is a shooter, not as active as you or me perhaps Any member can stand for election to Council if nominated and seconded by other members, ALL members then have the right to vote for the candidates they want to be elected - details of BASC elections are here: http://basc.org.uk/about-basc/council-and-constitution/basc-council-elections-2014/ David I'ts gone down by one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Gandalf, As I have said Council set policy, that's what the rules say. Council made their decision based on all the points stated on the BASC web site, and the same position has been adopted by the CA, NGO and Angling Trust, indeed I don't know of any shooting organisation that opposed NE's proposal on this issue I know the Chairman and other members of Council are aware of the points you have all raised on this thread, I have been keeping them briefed. I repeat, this is in no way intended to be detrimental to wildfowling, nor do any of the shooting organisations think it will be. Its about allowing farmers and other landowners greater control over certain species when they become a problem on their land. David Council cannot stop members calling an SGM, again that's in the rules David David, The CA, NGO and Angling Trust are not directly involved with wildfowling. BASC, due to its roots, is. That makes a very big difference. I can quite see why anglers would agree with the proposal and maybe some of the game keepers. What the CA does I have no idea but they do not principally support shooters as BASC does. What other large shooting organisations are there? You still don't answer my question - Why wont the council reconsider its decision? BASC is not in existence to represent farmers and landowners - They are well able to represent themselves. BASC exists to represent its members - shooters and conservationists. Wildfowlers are both. Grandalf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 . I repeat, this is in no way intended to be detrimental to wildfowling, nor do any of the shooting organisations think it will be. Its about allowing farmers and other landowners greater control over certain species when they become a problem on their land. But i don't think farmers are driving or wanting this change, i would be surprised if they NFU etc even knew this was going throu. Can't see it being a big problem for the farming comminity, judging by the low number of SL that does appear to be the case. How many farmers apply for a licence to ***** eggs? Would guess very few if any. Shooting yes possibly but not pricking eggs or killing by injection (how the hell do u that anyway, i take it it is chicks? in paul t's post 361) Also judging by the low number of SL's can't see how really going to save NE much money say compared to number off Cormorant SL's. Funny how with police/firearms u push for better more effeicent proccessing yet on this ur not asking NE for more efficent handling, i would imagine it would be pretty easy to apply online or in advance if u have previously applied and succesfully gained a SL. Also the few people on this thread that have used the SL say it hasn't been a problem gettin the licence. This whole thread has made no sense to me from the start, Why would NE push for it and mhy Basc would not object, Until kent's post a few above. The only thing that makes any sense is so called conservation charites are pushing for this behind the scenes, if it was something shooters/farmers actually wanted them would be shouting from the rooftops and launching the usual smear campign, But there all quiet. Ask for cormorants on the GL or dare i say buzzards on a SL and the noise would deafen u. I think an FOI check of who has been using these licence's would be very interesting, i think kent will be spot on and these bodies are scaed off having to admit it to members. Possibly anyone that is a member of WWT, RSPB wot is there offical line on all this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Say a wildfowl charity was feeding a lot of mallard at no small cost and they were occupying space that could be taken by rarer fowl, might they wish to reduce the numbers of mallard? Ok they could get a SL but then NE have to disclose the who and why under the freedom of info act. How might this sit with some of its donators if someone blabbed? Its got nothing to do with duck poop I suspect. GL will mean they just get on with it without a paper trail The crop is not a crop its free food, the public health is a smoke screen as all duck poop is the same as Mallard poop Remember we have an ex- NE fella to deal with here Yes and shooting will end up as the scapegoat, when the general public see the picture of a "sportsman" with a load of geese in June Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 (edited) Derbyduck, sorry to hear that but thank you very much for you support in the past. Gandalf, the largest organisations representing live quarry shooting to a greater or lesser extent are certainly BASC, CA and NGO, others are way smaller or do not have any remit on live quarry shooting. I am not trying to avoid your question, but I have no power or influence over the Chairman or Council, so I cannot possible answer what Council may or may not do next. As I said before do we really want to paint BASC and its members and the shooting organisation who wants farmers and landowners tied up in red tape, have to fill in a 10 page application form and to have to wait up to 30 days or more to get a SL granted if their crops are being damaged? How many people could lose their shooting opportunity if this were the case? Yes we represent shooters; all shooters and push conservation hard. The members elect from their number those who they wish to represent them on the elected Council, and we re bound by the decisions of those elected members. David Edited May 10, 2014 by David BASC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 BASC membership is growing, Richard is a shooter, not as active as you or me perhaps Any member can stand for election to Council if nominated and seconded by other members, ALL members then have the right to vote for the candidates they want to be elected - details of BASC elections are here: http://basc.org.uk/about-basc/council-and-constitution/basc-council-elections-2014/ David David was it not said in the aptly named "shooting and conservation" he shot the first time after joining BASC I am almost certain it was presented as such, Shooting should be at the very core of the CEOs heart (this will change and I don't mean he will become more interested) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 (edited) As I said before do we really want to paint BASC and its members and the shooting organisation who wants farmers and landowners tied up in red tape, have to fill in a 10 page application form and to have to wait up to 30 days or more to get a SL granted if their crops are being damaged? How many people could lose their shooting opportunity if this were the case? that was a quote from David basc dunno how i've lost the wee box thing? So why not alter that and put pressure on NE to make that simplier, there have been afew folk who have posted who have actualy used them and stated after the first time it wasn't to bad. That would off been the sensible approach. How many of ur members have A applied for a SL and B lost shooting over it not being granted in time. The fact that there is only 30-50ish SL's a year suggest's very few And surely it is a wasted exercise kicking some 1 of a permission as the SL hasn't arrived in time as it also won't be in place for the next shooter Seems very strange to me u put all this effort into streamlining the Shotgun/Firearms application process and rightly so but are not prepared to put any work/fight into gettin NE to cut red tape. They want red tape cut u want it cut, so ur halfway there. How the hell the logic goes from cutting red tape to putting Greys and mallard on the GL when there is so few SL's issued and none refused. And both are amber listed The whole thing seems crazy Edited May 10, 2014 by scotslad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berettacocker Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Couldn't think of anything worse than shooting anything out of season(been on lots of game shoots when it's warm and sunny in October and that didn't feel right). Leave em alone and let them breed, there not in Quelea or Locust proportions!! Hope I doesn't happen, and most self respecting guns would not shoot them anyway!! Basc :( :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Well like most Wildfowling Club members my subs are not up for a while so I will not be out short term. Can I make a point that BASC has served all the shooting disciplines well in the past, this is a recent swing. Yes we have recruited what I personally see as the wrong man to head us up, personally I should be a lot happier if we had a life long committed shooter Like Mitchel or the likes at the head. Yes this NE consultation is running against what BASC actually stand for, we are not Farmers (who I personally believe are but a PR spin / scape goats offered up to hide the true movers and shakers) HOWEVER within the ranks of BASC we can change things, new rules can be written, new councils elected and yes we can remove anyone in time by various means even the top man. What it might take is pressure from within and voting power. What we need to do is form a plan among the faithful and ethical sportsmen and rally the troops. The RSPCA and RSPB have both had similar issues, lets also take on the fight and go forward with a fitter and stronger BASC they have fought and started to win, why cannot we?. I have said it before but a lot of good men are doing the job they have been told and paid to do here, If you worked in a shop and your employer offered the worse value in town might you tell all the paying customers so at the till? I don't fancy building a New replacement for BASC when we the members can alter the one we have from the inside- thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Firstly, lets be very clear on this - the CEO does NOT make policy, the elected members of Council do and the CEO is charged with putting those policy decisions into practice, it would not matter if you had as CEO of BASC someone who had been a wildfowler from birth, or someone who has never seen a shotgun, the situation would be the same. You are quite correct Kent, members should take much more interest in who they propose and elect from their number to represent their interests on Council, that's always been at the heart of BASC, the members control what BASC does through the rules and constitution, and long may that continue. Every member can vote, we send them postal ballot forms and they can vote on line, its simple and easy as it can be but most don't bother. Want to build a bigger and better BASC? I think we all do! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 I really take my hat off to u David, u really are a credit to Basc coming on here into the 'lions den' esp at all hours. I think Basc would be getting a far bigger slagging if it wasn't for u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Firstly, lets be very clear on this - the CEO does NOT make policy, the elected members of Council do and the CEO is charged with putting those policy decisions into practice, it would not matter if you had as CEO of BASC someone who had been a wildfowler from birth, or someone who has never seen a shotgun, the situation would be the same. You are quite correct Kent, members should take much more interest in who they propose and elect from their number to represent their interests on Council, that's always been at the heart of BASC, the members control what BASC does through the rules and constitution, and long may that continue. Every member can vote, we send them postal ballot forms and they can vote on line, its simple and easy as it can be but most don't bother. Want to build a bigger and better BASC? I think we all do! David Perhaps David a CEO who shoots, has slightly more insight into how to put into practice what he is being asked to do ? Words like rapport, even credibility (with members/partners) come to mind. There is little doubt in my mind that a man who shoots has a clearer understanding of how to support shooting - as anyone would who managed any organisation. Many managers move through organisations to fully understand the complexity of the task they subsequently manage. This is only my view. I dont seek here to differentiate between various types of shooting as, for example lead shot and the laws which govern its use, might better be understood and challenged by someone who has 'fowled/gameshot/roughshot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycatcat1 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 I really take my hat off to u David, u really are a credit to Basc coming on here into the 'lions den' esp at all hours. I think Basc would be getting a far bigger slagging if it wasn't for u +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 All I can say is thank you all for your feedback and comments, come what may I am sure we are stronger together. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Quote from David BASC"As I said before do we really want to paint BASC and its members and the shooting organisation who wants farmers and landowners tied up in red tape, have to fill in a 10 page application form and to have to wait up to 30 days or more to get a SL granted if their crops are being damaged? How many people could lose their shooting opportunity if this were the case? " Farmers and landowners should not be the priority issue here. BASC and its staff are employed by its members and clearly there is a very vocal section that is very unhappy with the desision of BASCs committee. As an organisation you have todecide what is more important here your members or fishermen , farmers , or landowners who have their own lobbying organisations to do the job BASC seems to be doing for them from your post. I would ask you one simple question David . If your next door farmer did not like pheasants ( there are a few who do not ) and had a problem with them digging out sprouting corn would you accept him being issued with a SL to reduce numbers or would you be happy with pheasants going on the GL and all in sundary being able to treat phasants just like pigeons and shoot them at any time of year? Because that is what is being supported by BASC over greylags. I can tell you now as a reserve warden conservation organsitions have no love of reared pheasants as they can cause untold dammage to insect populations. A pheasant shoot recently sprung up on a SSSI I am involved with and caused the complete extinction of several species of grasshoppers when pheasants wandered in droves onto the SSSI which ended with a restriction on the number of pheasants that can be reared and a limit on the number of days that shooting was allowed. So idea could become a possiblity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Interesting you should mention lead shot Kes,,,our current CEO is taking a much harder stance in the defence of lead than the last one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Interesting you should mention lead shot Kes,,,our current CEO is taking a much harder stance in the defence of lead than the last one... And the last one is expensed by BASC to fight our case on the Lead action group? I never liked him either he was a man of too many compromises for me personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 All I can say is thank you all for your feedback and comments, come what may I am sure we are stronger together. David We are still at war David but I know your doing your job as instructed and respect that even if I personally feel your talking garbage to defend the indefensible, especially after 10pm on a Sat night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Anser, the vast majority of our members shoot over farmland....we need to look after their interests too. Crop damage by pheasant is covered under the Agricultural Holdings Act if they damage crops on land where the shoot is based ,these claims re typically negated by good relationships and proper planning between the farming and shooting tenant . There is also the potential for a liability claim if the birds go one neighbouring land as the birds have been reared and released. And as you point out other control methods are in play. Whether or not game birds can be controlled under SL I do not know. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Perhaps David a CEO who shoots, has slightly more insight into how to put into practice what he is being asked to do ? Words like rapport, even credibility (with members/partners) come to mind. There is little doubt in my mind that a man who shoots has a clearer understanding of how to support shooting - as anyone would who managed any organisation. Many managers move through organisations to fully understand the complexity of the task they subsequently manage. This is only my view. I dont seek here to differentiate between various types of shooting as, for example lead shot and the laws which govern its use, might better be understood and challenged by someone who has 'fowled/gameshot/roughshot. You know I was no lover of Swift but its got to be said a lot of well qualified persons might have taken a pay cut to head up BASC for the odd nice invite and some perks LOL. I don't think the job pays enough to get a real good un in post unless they are not interested in their career or pay packet just the chance to fight for their sport. Its not so much the understanding but the passion IMO Anser, the vast majority of our members shoot over farmland....we need to look after their interests too. Crop damage by pheasant is covered under the Agricultural Holdings Act if they damage crops on land where the shoot is based ,these claims re typically negated by good relationships and proper planning between the farming and shooting tenant . There is also the potential for a liability claim if the birds go one neighbouring land as the birds have been reared and released. And as you point out other control methods are in play. Whether or not game birds can be controlled under SL I do not know. David This point was made way back, its why we shouldn't fail to support all regardless of membership interest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 So I would read your answer as yes would be happy for pheasants going on the GL if the need arose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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