Inclusion of the Greylag Goose onto the General License

[Conor O'Gorman]

Thankyou David i will remind you after the bank holliday ,In 1975 my club was awarded the prestigious Stanley Duncan award from WAGBI ... guess what for ? yes you guessed .Breeding and release of Mallard and Greylag .How times change ,very sad .

 

Or one could look at the current circumstances more laterally - that those efforts have been extremely successful. The bottom line is that replacing the processes behind existing licensing systems for greylag goose and mallard is not going to damage those conservation measures by WAGBI members in the 1950-1970 era. If there was any risk that it would have, BASC Council would not have supported the proposal. The Canada goose population continues to increase and the number of Canada goose shot per wildfowler on the foreshore in England and Wales continues to increase.

[kent]

Holloway, I will gladly pass on your request.

 

As far as I know the bag returns from the 100 clubs account for geese shot in season, on the foreshore ,but I will double check.

 

I recall at a wildfowling conference a few years ago, that there was a chap giving a very interesting talk on bird counts and as he said the duck and goose population will always be prone to local as well as regional and national fluctuations as the birds move around to preferential sites etc.

 

David

 

Why prey do you keep asking me for numbers when I state this fact as it appears you already know the inaccuracies of counts

[islandgun]

 

General Licence for the purpose of preserving public health and safety

Summary: Proposal to add two further species to paragraph 2(ii) of General Licence WML-GL05, which would permit action against nests and eggs of these species for the purpose of preserving public health and safety. There are three further species where we are seeking views on their addition to this same paragraph.

Explanation and Rationale

Greylag geese and mallard. These species are regularly reported to cause public health and safety concerns, and a number of individual licences are issued for this purpose each year (in 2012: 12 licences for greylag geese and 7 for mallard). Neither species is of conservation concern.

Has anyone ever come across a case of a human ever contracting any sort of disease from mallard or their droppings? I have been handling waterfowl for 35 years , dead and alive and worked in collections where droppings abound and one I had a problem where I caught ornithosis , but that is a lung disorder caused from the dust of drying blood quills. Unless you handle the birds in a confined space I would guess the odds of suffering from it are millions to one .

 

anser 2, the words dead horse and flogging come to mind,

I can understand Greylag becoming a serious pest to a young cereal crops especially in clay soils, and yes they graze grass intended for stock, but farmers currently have the option to obtain a licence to discourage them,

I now understand that NE have decided a GL is the cheapest option and sod the consequence, I don't understand why BASC have endorsed it considering they represent shooting and conservation,

I don't understand Mallard on a GL except that it will help park keepers from having to clear up the droppings around the parks pond after the duck's have digested the bread that is fed to them by a well meaning public

I think that shooting will end up the scapegoat and be considered the problem by the general public,

In the end it will be Greylag and Mallard that suffer the most, but I reckon we all will eventually, knowing it was to save a few bob.

[David BASC]

Kent, I have asked that if the bird count trend for Canada was down and the bag returns were down overall, would you be claiming this was proof that the GL had damaged the canada population?

 

Is it the overall national bird counts run by the various bodies all over the UK that you think are inaccurate, or the bag return data?

 

David

[kent]

Thats reassuring the next time i get a greylag or mallard nesting in my ventilation flue I will be at them with a big stick

 

same can be said for those flocks of robins any recipes for robin anyone

 

Can I ask what the risk is of a mallard nesting in a ventilation flue when they usually nest no more than 100 ft from water? Seems a daft place to put a flue.

 

Don't have a Robin recipe but there is one for four and twenty blackbirds! Can these go on your GL recommendations please BASC ? because I can see a potential marketplace for the slain

[kent]

Kent, I have asked that if the bird count trend for Canada was down and the bag returns were down overall, would you be claiming this was proof that the GL had damaged the canada population?

 

Is it the overall national bird counts run by the various bodies all over the UK that you think are inaccurate, or the bag return data?

 

David

 

Mmm,

I admit a few might be economical with the accuracy of their returns, having been a River Keeper I know how that one works first hand. You were quite taken by the fact that Geese might fly 40 miles for lunch, so how do we get good counts? I should ask anser2 personally its what he does all said and done. The talent that is within the ranks of BASC (at present) in this regards must be vast and as asked by the guy in question why no consultation for info? The good thing about SL is its local and does not rely on often inaccurate national counts.

A point, Feral keeps being used for resident greys yet the word has been said by the bodies you are quoting to be inaccurate today as a mix of re-introduced and feral have been well integrated and effectively only native breeding stock is accurate. So can we at least agree to change this term in the text ?

 

I also get the fact that not all BASC employees will agree with their employers on these matters and running against BASC in public could lead to consequences, but still voices should be speaking behind closed doors for the future of BASC. It wont be good to have us outside the org with grievances even if you don't value our subs and other input

[islandgun]

fortunately the GL refers to feral so the wild Greylag and Mallard are safe!

 

 

Mmm,

I admit a few might be economical with the accuracy of their returns, having been a River Keeper I know how that one works first hand. You were quite taken by the fact that Geese might fly 40 miles for lunch, so how do we get good counts? I should ask anser2 personally its what he does all said and done. The talent that is within the ranks of BASC (at present) in this regards must be vast and as asked by the guy in question why no consultation for info? The good thing about SL is its local and does not rely on often inaccurate national counts.

A point, Feral keeps being used for resident greys yet the word has been said by the bodies you are quoting to be inaccurate today as a mix of re-introduced and feral have been well integrated and effectively only native breeding stock is accurate. So can we at least agree to change this term in the text ?

 

I also get the fact that not all BASC employees will agree with their employers on these matters and running against BASC in public could lead to consequences, but still voices should be speaking behind closed doors for the future of BASC. It wont be good to have us outside the org with grievances even if you don't value our subs and other input

[anser2]

Quote "I recall at a wildfowling conference a few years ago, that there was a chap giving a very interesting talk on bird counts and as he said the duck and goose population will always be prone to local as well as regional and national fluctuations as the birds move around to preferential sites etc."

 

 

David

This is not the case with resident greylag. I hae ringed 100s and none have moved further that 30 miles. There is however evidence that ringed greylag have migrated here to moult in summer from Holland and Belguim. I have seen and reported two neck ringed birds seen on the North norfolk coast.

[David BASC]

Morning Anser, I have no doubt you are correct re greylags, I was wondering if it was local / regional movements of canadas that explained why they seem fewer in number in some areas although the national trends and bag returns are upwards?

[muncher]

Can anyone tell me how many SL were granted for cormorant control I bet there are far more SL for them ,and yet there's no mention of them being put on the GL.

12 Sl issued for 2012 on greys seems a very small amount and seems very unjust to put them on the GL ,and as for Canada geese I Shoot the ouse washes as well as the foreshore and Canada geese were abundant they are not now didn't shoot 1 last season and saw very few .will check our bag returns for the last 3 years and I will put my findings on here .

[kent]

You know, it might be hard for some to tell a Whitefront from a Greylag and as the Whitefront likes to nest on inland freshwaters it only takes a few fools. On our local reservoir there are quite a few resident Whitefronts nesting. I was thinking on how my local stock might be effected if a few landowners saw fit for summer murder and you know what I think there is an issue here. Not directly connected to BASCs stupidity but Whitefront numbers are not that high and there is no qualifying std of shooter unlike on most club marshes were the candidate must usually undergo testing, training, mentoring and a probation period most commonly. I do not feel many of those guys will be running out gun in hand in May

[kent]

Can anyone tell me how many SL were granted for cormorant control I bet there are far more SL for them ,and yet there's no mention of them being put on the GL.

12 Sl issued for 2012 on greys seems a very small amount and seems very unjust to put them on the GL ,and as for Canada geese I Shoot the ouse washes as well as the foreshore and Canada geese were abundant they are not now didn't shoot 1 last season and saw very few .will check our bag returns for the last 3 years and I will put my findings on here .

 

I cant but I can tell you that it was a bit long winded to get the first year but real quick and simple on subsequent years as long as the job got done. some beats didn't actually carry it out and hence couldn't show need at renewal which was a shame as they couldn't be renewed.

you see the point is if you shoot your allowance it proves need, if you don't get that number it shows less need and none shot shows no need. GL nobody knows until its too late when reliant on counts that are well known to be inaccurate over the short term

[scotslad]

Can anyone tell me how many SL were granted for cormorant control I bet there are far more SL for them ,and yet there's no mention of them being put on the GL.

12 Sl issued for 2012 on greys seems a very small amount and seems very unjust to put them on the GL ,and as for Canada geese I Shoot the ouse washes as well as the foreshore and Canada geese were abundant they are not now didn't shoot 1 last season and saw very few .will check our bag returns for the last 3 years and I will put my findings on here .

 

I was going to raise a similar point but didn't want to go off topic.

 

Basically around 50 SL for Greys and about 13ish for Mallard ar granted every year and that is justification to put them on the GL???

Hard to belive Basc going for it even harder to believe Rspb, Wwt et al going for it too.

 

As pretty much everyone says no one has a problem with the SL system where farmers can get a specific licence for a specific problem, possibly stream line it to make it faster for farmers and save money/red tape? mibee online or apply in advance if same farmer has historically had licences year on year. Possibly even no site visit if had previous licences

Out off courosity are the licences generally issued to the same few farmers year on year? From wot anser says above may be quite likely

 

How many applications are recieved each year for cormrant control or gossander/merganser (can get them in scotland anyway dunno about south off border) How many failed applications for a Buzzard?

 

Playing devils advocate here but if ur going to put bird on the general licence with only 50 requests a year should we all start applying for licences to control problem buzzards or cormarants and in a few years time basc will push for them on GL too tongue firmly in cheek

[Terry P]

Can anyone find out how many SL are granted ever year for brent, perhaps they will be next. I would really like to see the difference between yearly grants for them in comparison to Greys as one is protected and the other apparently just vermin.

[islandgun]

Can anyone find out how many SL are granted ever year for brent, perhaps they will be next. I would really like to see the difference between yearly grants for them in comparison to Greys as one is protected and the other apparently just vermin.

excuse my ignorance, do brent graze inland I thought they ate eel grass and stayed seaward of the sea wall, mind you eating eel grass is probably a good enough reason to stick em with a general licence, esp as wagtail and robins are (or proposed) thats a cracking bass by the way

 

 

scotslad your saying the same as me, surely farmers with a persistent problem could be fast tracked regarding Greylag on a SL

[Terry P]

I'm sure on parts of the east coast SL's are granted for the control of Brents.

Cheers for the kind comment on the bass, bass mad in summer, goose crazy in winter

[strongbow]

Hi All

 

This link states the number of Cormorant licences as 497 in 2012

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/piscy-stats_tcm6-10263.pdf

 

and Brent Geese in 2011 - 74

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/statistics-all-birds-2011_tcm6-33758.pdf page 3

 

Scotslad - I think WWT will more than happy for it to happen, I am lead to believe they applied for several licences last year to ***** eggs to stop the common species interfering with their more exotic ones.

 

 

[Terry P]

Hi All

 

This link states the number of Cormorant licences as 497 in 2012

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/piscy-stats_tcm6-10263.pdf

 

and Brent Geese in 2011 - 74

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/statistics-all-birds-2011_tcm6-33758.pdf page 3

 

Scotslad - I think WWT will more than happy for it to happen, I am lead to believe they applied for several licences last year to ***** eggs to stop the common species interfering with their more exotic ones.

 

 

Thank you fella, so we have more SL's issued for a protected species than we do greys yet BASC agrees to putting Greys on the GL.

[islandgun]

Thank you fella, so we have more SL's issued for a protected species than we do greys yet BASC agrees to putting Greys on the GL.

+ another one

[scotslad]

It seems crazy how these conservation charities seem to pick and choose wot birds deserve protection and wot don't deserve protection.

Do u think they tell all there members wot they get up to esp when birds are nesting (althou a bit different pricking eggs to shooting) when blood thirsty shooters would not even do it

 

Good link strongbow

I'm no paper shufler but i would imagine it would cost far more to process 497 cormorant licences than 50 for the greylags, yet why not try and put them onto the GL?

 

Just seems very odd to me NE even trying to put them on the GL esp mallard when some concern their numbers are dropping and are amber listed but even stranger basc agreeing with it.

[motty]

The Basc voice in this thread has gone a bit quiet. Strange!

[anser2]

Islandgun, when brents first arrive they feed on the saltmarsh and muds on zostera and grass. At the end of the autumn they start to feed inland grazing winter wheat , but some still feed on the saltings. In early spring most go back to the saltmarsh , but this may change according to the site or how cold the weather is. Brent do more damage than other geese mainly because they feed in a tight mass and its like a lawn mower going across the field. In contrast grey geese are usualy more scattered across the field so the damage is less obvious. Brent damage is a lot worse in wet weather as their feet puddle the crop into the mud.

 

There is a problem with bringing brent back on to the shooting list. They go through a population cycle when they have a good breeding season when almost half the flock can be young of the year followed several poor breeding season which are often complete failures. If they were shot in a poor breeding season the population may crash. This happened in America when the East coast population fell from 160,000 ( about, cant remember the exact number ) to around 40,000 after just 2 years of reopening the season. They are protected across all of northern Europe so if we opened a season then so would Germany \Denmark and so on. I doubt if they could stand a full open season for very long. Plus the fact they are very tame so until they wise about shooting they would have a heavy mortality.

 

The yanks have reopened the shooting season for them after taking years to build up their numbers again ,but the season is short with strict bag limits. If in the UK we go down the road of bag limits\short seasons we open up a can of worms that might become serious. NE might push for shorter seasons for declining ducks such as pintail or pochard. With our tradition of shooting at dawn and dusk ( the Yanks shoot in broad daylight ) how many of us can put their hand on their heart and say we could tell a tufted duck and pochard or a wigeon and a hen pintail.

 

Like us the Americans have a problem with geese , but their answer was to have a short spring shooting season before they start breeding.

Edited May 5, 2014 by anser2

[Penelope]

It's known that Natural England would like to see the end of all non native species.

 

I wonder what will happen if/when they start on pheasants and redlegs?

 

David down this way Canada's had finally reached a healthy population, around 1200 to 1500, until they went on the GL, now we only have around 150.
Now this is not a stable or increasing population, and our bag numbers are down. We are not the only club this way who have seen a massive drop in numbers.
As for the GL not being there to reduce numbers, I posed my feelings about the drop in numbers of Canada's to BASC in 2011, the response below I posted on the Fowling Forum in 2011

Quote
" I had a talk with BASC South West Regional Officer, and raised my feelings over Canada's on general licence and the selling of them thereafter; he phoned the Mill and spoke with Tim Russell (BASC Head of Conservation).
Mr Russell's response was that it was NE (Natural England) that wanted a reduction in Canada numbers, the general licence is doing this well and BASC will not be trying to get them on to special licence, as it's a battle they feel that they cannot win.
It was explained to him that we are seeing a massive drop in Canada numbers due to people just shooting them because they can!!! under the proviso of the general licence.
His response was that "NE wishes are working well"!!!!
He also wouldn't want to rock the boat with this regarding their core membership who might feel that they are being done out of some form of shooting.


Wildfowlers are not BASC's core members !!!!!!!!!!!!!! " unquote

Edited May 6, 2014 by Penelope

[Penelope]

Very well put muncher, and it's a known fact that cormorants have had a huge impact on inland waterways and the fish that reside there in.

 

Can anyone tell me how many SL were granted for cormorant control I bet there are far more SL for them ,and yet there's no mention of them being put on the GL.

12 Sl issued for 2012 on greys seems a very small amount and seems very unjust to put them on the GL ,and as for Canada geese I Shoot the ouse washes as well as the foreshore and Canada geese were abundant they are not now didn't shoot 1 last season and saw very few .will check our bag returns for the last 3 years and I will put my findings on here .

[Penelope]

Since the Zostera virus of the 50's and the subsequent crash Brent were forced to go inland to seek food. Tens of thousands regularly flight inland along the Essex coast with your old stopping grounds being a particular favourite.

 

excuse my ignorance, do brent graze inland I thought they ate eel grass and stayed seaward of the sea wall, mind you eating eel grass is probably a good enough reason to stick em with a general licence, esp as wagtail and robins are (or proposed) thats a cracking bass by the way

 

 

scotslad your saying the same as me, surely farmers with a persistent problem could be fast tracked regarding Greylag on a SL