bedwards1966 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 BASC, I, along with others, want to know what you are doing to tackle the issue of police forces demanding the applicant to supply (and pay for) medical reports as part of their application for a shotgun/firearms certificate. What are you doing about this? I ask this on an open forum as you won't reply to my e-mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belly47 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/262618-attn-david-basc-durham-medical-info-proceedure/ you may find some answers you want in the above link, similar thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted May 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Thanks, but rather than continuing with an old thread that ends with talk of an e-mail following a press article I feel this question needs to be freshly put to BASC, allowing them to return with a full answer detailing what they are doing to resolve the entire issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 We are in talks with the Home Office and ACPO, . Although on the new forms you have to give details of your doctor and any conditions you may have, there is nothing in the HO guidance as who has to pay for this. Some area health authorities are charging for this service, and the police are tying to pass the cost on. That's why we are trying to get this resolved. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted May 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Many thanks for this David. The e-mail that I've sent to BASC (which has not been relied to) asks what support is currently in place for BASC members who follow your advice not to co-operate with these unlawful demands. What support will BASC give to members who follow your advice not co-operate with this unlawful demand (or 'request') but who are then told that their application will be delayed, put on hold or even cancelled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicW Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 In my last dealings with my Firearms Office they asked my Doctor for a medical report. Because the Doctor failed to respond there was a considerable delay in proceedings and the Firearms Office only contacted my Doctor when I prompted them. The office told me that Doctors were charging up to £100 for these reports, a price that the licence fee obviously doesn't cover. Therefore consideration was being given to asking the applicant to provide the medical report at the applicant's expense. Vic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 If you have any licencing issues please call the firearms team on 01244 573030, they need to discuss with you in detail the exact circumstances of the problems you are having and then can take action and give further advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted May 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Hi David, Thanks for your response, however I am not inquiring about a personal issue I have to do with firearms licencing. I am asking a direct question to Britain's largest country shooting organisation to establish what your organisation will do to support those members who follow your advice and refuse to comply with the unlawful demands (or 'requests') by police licencing departments to supply medical reports with their application for a shotgun or firearms certificate. It is a simple question but for some reason BASC won't answer it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Well Ile defend BACS for a change they haven't answered your question because as far as Im aware or BASC on the last thread no one has been refused or delayed their fac sgc because of this medical report. I personally renewed my fac again last year (Durham) and did not fill the medical report in and instructed them to renew of refuse my renewal and all was well. This is all people need to do instead of worrying about something that isn't really a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Sometimes in delicate situations it's best not to show your hand, I think your answer lies here We are in talks with the Home Office and ACPO, . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 As I said, if any member has any licencing problems, including medical report issues call our firearms team they will help on a case by case basis. On the bigger picture we are talking with ACPO and the HO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted May 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 What does 'help on a case by case basis' actually mean, and what will you actually do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHE Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 We are in talks with the Home Office and ACPO, . Although on the new forms you have to give details of your doctor and any conditions you may have, there is nothing in the HO guidance as who has to pay for this. Some area health authorities are charging for this service, and the police are tying to pass the cost on. That's why we are trying to get this resolved. David Surely there is nothing new here - we have always had to give the police permission to contact our doctor if they wish to do so, and the police have always paid the cost involved if they do so. As I understand it, they only actually do this if they feel a need to do so, for example if they have suspicions about alcohol or drug abuse or other health issues that may be relevant.In practice, they don't do this very often because it isn't often necessary. The new tactic employed by some forces is to force applicants to pay for a medical report whether it is needed or not. There is no legislation in place that allows them to do so, so this action is unlawful. As the action is unlawful, there is nothing to actually discuss with the Home Office and ACPO, they just need to be reminded that their action is unlawful. So, we come back to the question that BASC for some reason won't answer "I am asking a direct question to Britain's largest country shooting organisation to establish what your organisation will do to support those members who follow your advice and refuse to comply with the unlawful demands (or 'requests') by police licencing departments to supply medical reports with their application for a shotgun or firearms certificate." Where's the problem in answering this simple question? If a member follows BASC advice to refuse to comply with this demand (and this is likely to affect every single one of us in the future) what will BASC actually do? I don't know what 'help on a case by case basi actually means, but it doesn't seem to me to be any kind of response at all, as this will not be a case by case problem that just affects a tiny number of people, it will be an unlawful action that affects 26,000 BASC members every year. That's 100 each working day... BASC isn't going to make 100 individual decisions every day, it is going to make (or has already made) a policy decision on the level of support that will be provided to members. It's a simple question - what will that level of support be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Having tried to answer the question twice, this is third time lucky... A member contacts us We ask what the problem is and give the advice as what to do next, if its something they can do Seccondy - assuming no progress had been made and the licencing team are still being awkward we either Call them and try to sort it out or Send in the local Regional officer with the member to try and sort it out face to face Thirdly, if the police refuse to grant or renew we have the option to take them to court Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 And of course we also have Durham adding another form to the application apart from the medical info request to the GP. "It is now expanding the trial to add a voluntary questionnaire asking the applicants themselves direct questions about whether they have a history of suicidal thoughts, depression, bi-polar disorder or other neurological conditions."http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-27306006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p@cman Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 What does 'help on a case by case basis' actually mean, and what will you actually do? **** me.... seriously, is English not your first language..? What part of "help on a case by case basis" do you not actually understand? Jeeeez.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 And of course we also have Durham adding another form to the application apart from the medical info request to the GP. "It is now expanding the trial to add a voluntary questionnaire asking the applicants themselves direct questions about whether they have a history of suicidal thoughts, depression, bi-polar disorder or other neurological conditions." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-27306006 Durham are just following suit on this one, Northumbria for 1 already send out these forms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 well if this **** is still going on, when my renewal is up in 3 years time,i wont pay for it ,ill just give up shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 well if this **** is still going on, when my renewal is up in 3 years time,i wont pay for it ,ill just give up shooting.Yeah I think that's what they want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted May 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Having tried to answer the question twice, this is third time lucky... A member contacts us We ask what the problem is and give the advice as what to do next, if its something they can do Seccondy - assuming no progress had been made and the licencing team are still being awkward we either Call them and try to sort it out or Send in the local Regional officer with the member to try and sort it out face to face Thirdly, if the police refuse to grant or renew we have the option to take them to court But you haven't answered the actual question. This isn't about a general problem with an application, it is specifically about a delay or refusal to process an application when a person refuses to comply with the unlawful demands (or 'requests') made by police. The advice given by BASC is not to co-operate, but there has been no clear answer on what will be done to support anybody who finds themselves in this position. There is no 'case by case basis' for this, everybody who follows your advice will be in the exact same position and the support given by BASC should be the same in every case. On this basis when you say 'we have the option to take them to Court' does this mean that BASC are prepared to fully support any member faced with a problem following your advice, and will be stood alongside them fighting to win their appeal every step of the way, all the way to the end of a Court case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted May 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 **** me.... seriously, is English not your first language..? What part of "help on a case by case basis" do you not actually understand? Jeeeez.... The 'help on a case by case basis'. Does this mean they'll do nothing on every case but pretend to look at them individually? Does it mean they'll consider helping if the person happens to be lucky that day? There is no case by case basis on which to base any decisions for what support to provide. If a person follows their advice and finds that the police do not process their application or refuse to grant a certificate they will be in the exact same position as anybody else who has done the same thing. No variables. Therefor, there is no case by case basis and BASC should tell their members exactly what they will do to help. They will no doubt have a policy decision on this, we just need to know what this policy is. well if this **** is still going on, when my renewal is up in 3 years time,i wont pay for it ,ill just give up shooting. Seeing as you are not required to supply and pay for this you have nothing to worry about. Assuming of course that your shooting organisation is actually prepared to stand by you and prevent the police from acting unlawfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) yes we will always do our best to support to a good conclusion. Of course there is a case by case basis, you may not realise that there are at least three pilots going on around the country ,so depending on which constabulary the member is from will mean there may be a different approach needed Edited May 11, 2014 by David BASC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 if this **** is not law,how do the police get away with it,when guide lines say its not needed, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxtav Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Guidelines are just that a guide on what to do they are not legally binding it's a suggestion of in this case what the government thinks is the correct way to do it. So if a force want to do it differently they can. Not suggesting we do nothing and don't agree with it. But think it will be a difficult argument as the public safety card will be played and as the vast majority of the public don't shoot they will take some convincing. But it's a discussion we have to have using proven evidence to win and not emotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armsid Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) BASC in my opinion do a good job and are probably sorting out all the problems highlighted above but are not showing their hand until needed i had a very awkward experience with West.Mids.police being accused of threats to shoot someone while carrying out vermin control on my own ground..BASC were on the ball and helped resolve the situation.my point is let BASC sort out the problems members have with individual forces it is a power game to police forces to covertly put a spoke into shooting and medicals can be the way. Edited May 11, 2014 by armsid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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