Harnser Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 I keep hearing and reading ,and seeing advertised on here cross bred dogs for use as gun dogs . I will agree that just about any dog can be trained to hunt and retrieve . But why specific interbred dogs for the gun ,rather than the traditional gun dog breeds . Are these dogs deemed better than the normal gun dog breeds for the gun or are they just a fad . Owners of these dogs seem to be asking upwards of £500 for these dogs ,so not cheap . Not to long a go they were known as mongrels and were free to a good home . Just something that has had me thinking . Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 X-bred dogs - no need to KC reg - no restriction to 4 litters - no need to health test - more bucks for the breeder. What's the one about rolling a **** in glitter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsorense Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 X-bred dogs - no need to KC reg - no restriction to 4 litters - no need to health test - more bucks for the breeder. What's the one about rolling a **** in glitter? So cross bred dogs are ****? That just highlights either snobbery or a lack of knowledge on your part. All "pedigree" dogs were cross bred at some point, just now they breed to type. Cross bred dogs are almost always healthier (heterosis) and just because you buy a pedigree dog doesn't guarantee that it's any good! Personally I don't feel the need to put any money in the coffers of the Kennel club so that's neither here nor there. Horses for courses I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 So cross bred dogs are ****? That just highlights either snobbery or a lack of knowledge on your part. All "pedigree" dogs were cross bred at some point, just now they breed to type. Cross bred dogs are almost always healthier (heterosis) and just because you buy a pedigree dog doesn't guarantee that it's any good! Personally I don't feel the need to put any money in the coffers of the Kennel club so that's neither here nor there. Horses for courses I suppose. The vast majority are ****, yes. Sure, someone on here will say .."but my uncle Jimmy has one that does everything plus cartwheels", but the fact of the matter is, you just don't know what you will end up with regarding a Heinz 57. Dont forget, a dog can still be a pedigree without any input from the KC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Intentional breeding is usually for cash, nothing wrong with many of the crosses for work as long as the cross is not contradictory. EG. a cocker x ESS is likely to be just as good as a pure bred of either. Like its been said no limits on litter numbers. Personally speaking I think all breeds should have external blood added every few generations and then bred out again, like they are allowed to in the USA but the UK kennel club don't like it 1/16th Lab aint going to harm a Golden retriever line much and I am simply not having there being no Springer or Cocker lines that have had sneaky introductions done and papers filled out wrong. The thread title infers Equine blood this is just not possible in Canids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fergie Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 I have just bought a cocker/lab and couldn't be happier ok she's not trained yet but coming on great for her age bot the sire and botch are working dogs but I also didn't pay £500 I have in the past had kc registered dogs as pets and paid good money so this was not an issue I got this cross as they can along at the right time but at this stage I would do it again I also agree that they tend to be healthier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsorense Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 The vast majority are ****, yes. Sure, someone on here will say .."but my uncle Jimmy has one that does everything plus cartwheels", but the fact of the matter is, you just don't know what you will end up with regarding a Heinz 57. Dont forget, a dog can still be a pedigree without any input from the KC. Obviously you are correct that you don't know what you're getting with a mongrel, unlike a pedigree. **** at what? I think dog men who run lurchers would disagree with you there, for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Intentional breeding is usually for cash, nothing wrong with many of the crosses for work as long as the cross is not contradictory. EG. a cocker x ESS is likely to be just as good as a pure bred of either. Like its been said no limits on litter numbers. Personally speaking I think all breeds should have external blood added every few generations and then bred out again, like they are allowed to in the USA but the UK kennel club don't like it 1/16th Lab aint going to harm a Golden retriever line much and I am simply not having there being no Springer or Cocker lines that have had sneaky introductions done and papers filled out wrong. The thread title infers Equine blood this is just not possible in Canids So if it aint going to harm much then how much will it help? By the way, regarding breeding x's, most that do dont know a dogs **** from it's elbow so how they could make the call on "contradictory" x's is beyond imagination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsorense Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 So if it aint going to harm much then how much will it help? By the way, regarding breeding x's, most that do dont know a dogs **** from it's elbow so how they could make the call on "contradictory" x's is beyond imagination. The same could be said for most pedigree breeders, as soon becomes evident if you ever get talking to them about genetics or diet etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 So cross bred dogs are ****? That just highlights either snobbery or a lack of knowledge on your part. All "pedigree" dogs were cross bred at some point, just now they breed to type. Cross bred dogs are almost always healthier (heterosis) and just because you buy a pedigree dog doesn't guarantee that it's any good! Personally I don't feel the need to put any money in the coffers of the Kennel club so that's neither here nor there. Horses for courses I suppose. So you'd be quite happy to ante up £500 on a Sprocker, that's got a serious chance of turning out like a Springer, when you can buy a KC Registered Springer that's from good stock for £350? Another saying for you, bull**** baffles brains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsorense Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 So you'd be quite happy to ante up £500 on a Sprocker, that's got a serious chance of turning out like a Springer, when you can buy a KC Registered Springer that's from good stock for £350? Another saying for you, ******** baffles brains. Who said anything about me paying £500 for a sprocker? I have one cross bred dog and one pedigree, I paid more for the pedigree as you would expect. People will take the mick with prices in any sale if people are willing to pay. I don't think that cross breeds should cost more than pedigrees, I was merely taking offence at your statement that all cross breeds are "****" (they are not). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Who said anything about me paying £500 for a sprocker? I kinda thought the thread was about paying £500 for a X bred gun dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 The vast majority are ****, yes. Sure, someone on here will say .."but my uncle Jimmy has one that does everything plus cartwheels", but the fact of the matter is, you just don't know what you will end up with regarding a Heinz 57. Dont forget, a dog can still be a pedigree without any input from the KC. What most folk don't realise is that Uncle Jimmy can do regular 300 yard rabbit head shots with his .22lr & backs every winner on Channel 4 on a Saturday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsorense Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 I kinda thought the thread was about paying £500 for a X bred gun dog Or whether they are any better at their job? PS - lovely lab you have for sale, looks like a cracker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Or whether they are any better at their job? PS - lovely lab you have for sale, looks like a cracker. Thanks, he's a grand dog with a bit of size about him & will make up into a nice worker in the right hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsorense Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Thanks, he's a grand dog with a bit of size about him & will make up into a nice worker in the right hands. I'm sure he will do someone proud. All the best with the sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJL4 Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 If your happy to take a chance on a cross it's your choice and your money but don't expect to get a dog that's the best of both worlds. If your happy to have a cross AND it's cheap enough then feel free BUT, as has been stated in the original OP's post the prices for some advertised "crosses/mongrels" are idiotic. Why anyone would consider paying the same money for a cross as a decent pedigree amazes me. You may get lucky, as I know some do, but chances are you might not. Why take the chance when for the same money you could get a dog with a known lineage and a better chance of turning out ok? As has already been mentioned it all comes down to money in the end and how fast people think they can knock out litters. And before anyone gets the idea that I'm slating crosses I'm not.... I have one myself. She was a gamekeepers "mishap" that I bought for a couple of pints. I use her for dogging in but she's to shot away to take her picking up, I keep the other four properly bred dogs for that! Shame I have five bitches Perce and no room for a dog at present or I'd be after that beast of yours. DaveL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Personally speaking I think all breeds should have external blood added every few generations and then bred out again, like they are allowed to in the USA Enlighten please, Kent - 'cause unless you know something about gundogs that I don't know here in the USA, that's a real whopper. You can get five-generation (and in some cases 10-generation) pedigrees here, and all the dogs on those pedigrees are of the same breed as your puppy. So unless you're alluding to imported blood as "external blood added," it just doesn't happen. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 The simple thing is why cross and for many it's because the dogs aren't able to be registered or the parents wouldn't pass health tests. The kennel club aren't perfect but at least they are pushing health tests and putting age restrictions on breeding and number of litters etc. mongrels are un restricted you can do what you like and often charge similar money to a breeder who is responsible and does the recommended tests and hip scoring etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Friends of mine paid £800 a few years ago for a cockerpoo from a woman who called herself a breeder who was only in it for the money. It's a nice little dog but it's not worth £800 and it's not a cockerpoo its a mongrel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Enlighten please, Kent - 'cause unless you know something about gundogs that I don't know here in the USA, that's a real whopper. You can get five-generation (and in some cases 10-generation) pedigrees here, and all the dogs on those pedigrees are of the same breed as your puppy. So unless you're alluding to imported blood as "external blood added," it just doesn't happen. MG I am not particulary speaking of gundogs but all pedigree dogs. The Dalmation was agreed by the American Kennel club for instance. We are supposed to be able to do it here but I don't think any has yet been excepted. I remember reading about the king Charles (a breed with serious problems) and still they drag their feet. Its about faulty genes occurring and needing full new blood to remove it. Not sure how far back the out of breed outcross needs to be but I remember it can be done there and in practice it cannot here. If you look at some breeds there is too much common blood to get total new blood within some Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 I think that Kent has a valid point. As for knowing what you are getting with a KC registered dog - I have to smile. I know someone whose Greyhound was siring pups when it was 18 years old. Even more remarkable considering it had been dead for about 9 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 So if it aint going to harm much then how much will it help? By the way, regarding breeding x's, most that do dont know a dogs a==e from it's elbow so how they could make the call on "contradictory" x's is beyond imagination. By allowing the removal of faulty genes when they occur and proliferate in a breed King Charles and Fitting being a prime example Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 By allowing the removal of faulty genes when they occur and proliferate in a breed King Charles and Fitting being a prime example Surely, given the simplistic way you describe " allowing the removal of faulty genes" it would be equally as easy to find a line of the same breed to do exactly the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 When this one whips up i always start thinking about the human gene pool and whether there are any pedigree homo sapiens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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