Gunsmiths

[Gunman]

The subject of gunsmiths crops up in these pages and the question is how do you know if the person you are dealing with is a competent professional or a DIY bodger .

So lets be straight about this most gunshops are not gunsmiths apart from the generic term . There are many true gunsmiths who are not gunshops and just because a man has an RFD and calls himself a gunsmith does not necessarily follow he is a capable person .

OK he may well be able to fit a striker or spring alter a stock or bore a choke but can he do anything else? IMHO admitting what you can and can not do is key . There a lot of things I can do as well as a number of things I can not or can not do well enough , in these times I know people who can so I will give the work to them as they in turn send work to me that they can not do themselves .There are also people who specialise in rifles as opposed to shotguns the two are not always the same .

This is the way the trade works and has always worked men came out of London and Birmingham well rounded but often specialising in one specific area , stocking , barrel making ,action work etc. and as time goes by you lean other skills. Nobody I know will tell you that they can do every thing and those that do I avoid .

Ask the question what did you do before you did this ? How long have you been doing this ? See what is said .

Edited September 11, 2014 by Gunman

[bluesj]

That goes for most trades not just gunsmithing!

[bostonmick]

Everyone would be well advised to only use fully trained professional gunsmiths and avoid like the plague the local screwdriver expert. Guns are perfectly safe unless they have been played around with by someone who thinks they know it all. I also only buy my guns from dealers who have a trained inhouse gunsmith. Atb

[Gordon R]

I phoned a North West "gunsmith" to get some chokes done. I told him I wanted 3/8 and 3/8. He told me he didn't know what 3/8 was. I told him it was between 1/4 and 1/2. Said it was a new one to him. I declined his offer to have a look at them.

 

Ended up going to Malmo, who sent them to Nigel Teague. Top shop and top job by Nigel.

 

I should have started at Malmo.

[Archie-fox]

I phoned a North West "gunsmith" to get some chokes done. I told him I wanted 3/8 and 3/8. He told me he didn't know what 3/8 was. I told him it was between 1/4 and 1/2. Said it was a new one to him. I declined his offer to have a look at them.

 

Ended up going to Malmo, who sent them to Nigel Teague. Top shop and top job by Nigel.

 

I should have started at Malmo.

+1 only shop I use for new rifles and ammo..

 

Failing that i go to the skipton gun room...another decent shop.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Archie-fox

[Markt3815]

Glad you raised the topic gunman I couldn't find a true gunsmith in the whole of south yorkshire as you found in my post offers to Bodge things up but no real fixes to offer.

[aris]

I'm surprised there is no trade association.

[Tom-b]

Being qualified in my opinion is not always the best indicator, I'm a carpenter by trade and have worked with most other trades in the industry, more than once I have impolitely asked so called qualified trades to leave site.

 

On the other hand there was an old gent near where I live, he was a completely self taught gunsmith and worked from his garden shed, before he passed away he had permission from a local farmer who's field backed on to the his garden so his high profile customers could land there helicopters so he could work on there Hollands and purdeys.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Tom-b

[clayman]

I'm surprised there is no trade association.

 

There is

 

The Gun Trade Association is a professional association encompassing all areas of the gun trade, including gunsmiths and manufacturers.

 

[aris]

There is

 

The Gun Trade Association is a professional association encompassing all areas of the gun trade, including gunsmiths and manufacturers.

 

[img=http://youraccount.ekmpowershop5.com/ekmps/shops/clayman21/images/rfd-services-8-c[ekm]116x126[ekm].jpg?_=1964025414]

They do not seem to qualify gunsmiths or their competence.

[clayman]

No, there is no specific UK qualifying body for "Gunsmith", and Professional Associations and Qualifying Bodies are two different animals. A parallel can be seen in Shotgun Coaching - CPSA is a qualifying body but not a professional assoc per se; Institute of Clay Shooting Instructors is a professional body, but does not qualify; APSI is a professional assoc that has an in house qualification course.

 

Professional Bodies such as GTA and Guild of Master Craftsmen only allow member entry by sponsorship and vetting, but neither provide qualifications.

 

Gunsmith's can gain their experience by mentored systems ( apprenticeship to existing Gunsmith's) or from general qualifications such as Journeyman Machinist. Some overseas countries have trade specific training and diploma's, ie NZ.

 

Again, a parallel can be drawn with Coaching - a BASC "accredited" Coach is accredited in a general coaching City and Guilds that is applied to shotgun teaching. The same qualification is available for badminton or even cookery. Similarly, there are many technical courses in metal work, precision mechanics etc that are suitable bases for taking that learning into the gun trade, but ultimately you are a Gunsmith because you say you are and you have enough experience and reputation to be considered one.

 

Like the medical profession, the Gunsmith definition has a broad scope. There is your GP and your bench repairing gunsmith. These are supported by technicians and consultants in the medical world, and in the gun trade there are many specialist areas. General gunsmiths will sub out specialist work, stocking, blacking, barrel polishing, or anything some-one else does better, quicker or cheaper - or that they dont have the skills or machinery to handle in-house. This is normal for any profession - people with broad skills, supported by specific specialists.

[bostonmick]

 

Being qualified in my opinion is not always the best indicator, I'm a carpenter by trade and have worked with most other trades in the industry, more than once I have impolitely asked so called qualified trades to leave site.

 

On the other hand there was an old gent near where I live, he was a completely self taught gunsmith and worked from his garden shed, before he passed away he had permission from a local farmer who's field backed on to the his garden so his high profile customers could land there helicopters so he could work on there Hollands and purdeys.[

 

Welcome to the twilight zone.

[kent]

Being qualified in my opinion is not always the best indicator, I'm a carpenter by trade and have worked with most other trades in the industry, more than once I have impolitely asked so called qualified trades to leave site.

 

On the other hand there was an old gent near where I live, he was a completely self taught gunsmith and worked from his garden shed, before he passed away he had permission from a local farmer who's field backed on to the his garden so his high profile customers could land there helicopters so he could work on there Hollands and purdeys.

 

Agreed, seen it many times in many the ultimate test is in the doing. I also find those most precious about being "qualified" or "apprentice trained" are those best to keep an eye on and lets face it most of us grow away from our roots in the trade we started at anyhow. Some of the best guns produced today are made by engineers who are trained in aerospace etc.

[Gordon R]

clayman - decent post.

[deershooter]

Being qualified in my opinion is not always the best indicator, I'm a carpenter by trade and have worked with most other trades in the industry, more than once I have impolitely asked so called qualified trades to leave site.

 

On the other hand there was an old gent near where I live, he was a completely self taught gunsmith and worked from his garden shed, before he passed away he had permission from a local farmer who's field backed on to the his garden so his high profile customers could land there helicopters so he could work on there Hollands and purdeys.[

 

Welcome to the twilight zone.

 

Boston mick was that Pete Whylie?

[aris]

This is where I take my hat off to the French with their Meilleur Ouvrier de France

They give specific recognition to tradespeople and skilled artesians who are at the top of their game.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meilleur_Ouvrier_de_France

 

It's almost like a title, and for instance French bakers who are MOF wear a special band on their collars signifying their status (other artisans may do this too). If you do so without being a MOF - technically this is illegal in law, potentially imprisonable.

 

There was a nice documentary film on how pastry chefs prepared for this - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1558972/ - check it out if you can.

[bostonmick]

ame="bostonmick" post="2627586" timestamp="1410510849"]

 

Boston mick was that Pete Whylie?

No it is not

[bostonmick]

Most people nowadays will never come across or meet a gunsmith. The emphasis being on the word smith. A smith of years gone by was a person who created or fashioned an item from scratch by hand.ie blacksmith. Goldsmith etc. Computerised high precision machines and companies wanting larger profits have caused the decline of many of our old tradesmen.most now only fit new parts to guns that were made elsewhere by machines.in my humble opinion it is only the engravers who's craft is still true.

[wildrover77]

Most people nowadays will never come across or meet a gunsmith. The emphasis being on the word smith. A smith of years gone by was a person who created or fashioned an item from scratch by hand.ie blacksmith. Goldsmith etc. Computerised high precision machines and companies wanting larger profits have caused the decline of many of our old tradesmen.most now only fit new parts to guns that were made elsewhere by machines.in my humble opinion it is only the engravers who's craft is still true.

The good old big company large profit line.

 

Would that be the publicly owned big companies.

 

Or how about the reduction in production costs which this has allowed allowing a much improved standard of living.

 

20 years ago a 32 inch TV cost over a grand, today you can get one of 300, all because of those robbing big companies.

[bostonmick]

The good old big company large profit line.

 

Would that be the publicly owned big companies.

 

Or how about the reduction in production costs which this has allowed allowing a much improved standard of living.

 

20 years ago a 32 inch TV cost over a grand, today you can get one of 300, all because of those robbing big companies.

Steady there tiger.I have said nothing bad about companies wanting bigger profits.only that technology has reduced the standard of skills needed to be called a craftsman.most industry is the same now you will find it difficult to find a mechanic but there are plenty of fitters.a world of difference between the two.a tradesman of say fifty or sixty years ago was a far cry from today a good many skills have been lost.

[kent]

Skills have been lost and skills have been gained such is progress, unfortunately for the old skills modern machinery can work to what were unthinkable tolerances in the 30s and labour costs are not so cheap now we have less separation of wealth

[Gunman]

Engravers fine but what about a barrel maker who creates new barrels out of rough machining's or a stocker who is given a new action and set of measurements and a block of wood ,no pattern to copy just their skill and experience to produce the finished article .

Yes there is a degree of just fitting factory made parts as I'm sure that a carpenter will buy and hang a new ready made door from Jewson rather than making it ,There is still a lot of skill and knowhow out there but as time goes by is being lost ,there is no real manufacturing base left in the UK that used to be the training ground for those like myself who were apprenticed and worked on most aspects building new guns before moving on and away from the centres of gunmaking.

I also agree that there are and have been a good few largely self taught men of excellent ability and reputation but my original point was that there far to many "gunsmiths " who have no skill, little knowledge or ability and it is these that I have issue with as how do people know who they are trusting there guns to .

[Blackpowder]

Seems to me there are some self taught guys on here,' I dont know their background or training' but making a punt gun from scratch is certainly a highly skilled job. Likewise members renovating antique guns. I dont suppose any of them will term themselves gunsmiths but they certainly have the skills. I am fortunate as I know personally three gunsmiths who I would trust with any repairs, obviously barrel work would be out of house but re-stocking bench work is all in hand.

 

Blackpowder

[kent]

Today we can grow turbine blades and machine to microns, the true gunsmith has in fact become a restorer over time and a great many of the old guns of worth are now going un-shot as pure investments. I see that as a shame as a shooting man but I understand changing times.

Lets face it traditional ways get superseded if you wait long enough and its been happening in the guntrade for hundreds of years and every other trade and the skill set changes

[clayman]

As a generalisation, the public tend to group all gun trades under the label "gunsmith". the actual practitioners will describe themselves in the sub-categories, i.e. a Stockist; Action filer; Barrel maker; Engraver; etc - but the general public does not appreciate these distinctions and lumps them all together as " Gunsmith".

 

Similarly, their is a difference between a Gunsmith, and Armourer; a Gunmaker - etc

 

In any larger workshop in the hand made guns time, Webley & Scott etc - a gun was built by twenty different people, each engaging his particular skill along the build. None would claim to have the comprehensive skills needed to build a whole gun from scratch, but to the public, they are all known as Gunsmiths.

 

Today, the title "Gunsmith" is applied by the public to anyone who fiddles with guns, from changing a spring in an airgun, to machined barrel mods - and the skill set is for repairs and mods on existing guns. A "gunsmith" in the old sense of the word, who learnt via an apprenticeship to become a Master is something of the past - and the majority of persons called Gunsmiths today will be parts fitters for repairs, or machining modifiers for wear repairs or after-market tuning / imrovements.

 

While belonging to GTA / GofMCraftsmen / BASC trade etc and all preliminary judgements that the person has some comitment to their trade, bottom line is the public only have reputation to judge any gunsmith by.

 

So, to choose the right person for your job, firstly ascertain the individuals skill base, view their work if you can, and get prior customer's views on what they do.

 

Today, a Gunsmith who is in the general repairs sector, will survive on their reputation for quality of work, speed of turnaround, and value for money. The bodgers, slow, and overpriced will soon fall by the wayside, so its a pretty good indicator that if the Gunsmith in question has been in business for a few years, that they are sound and can be chosen with confidence.