Kes Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Yes as simply that would undermine the whole committee. However he won't as that would be far too simple a way to sink the group Perhaps its a way out that may yet come from BASC, as that would discredit him, if preempting a factual report doesnt do that with thousands of shooters/members. Rather suggests the final report may be biased towards his conviction rather than an impartial assessment of the evidence. I'm not holding my breath for BASC to act though as I suspect there is rather more at play here. Discrediting him further than they have already and thus sinking the report, may not be in 'the script'. All in all we shall see a lot from this reaction as Mr Spunner clearly isnt holding the 'shooting' party line as has been suggested all orgs are. It would be fascinating if it wasnt so completely damaging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) I really don't want to see a lead ban, but your view on steel shot is ridiculous. Could it be your shooting that was to blame for your poor results with steel? Sorry, Guys, but I don't know how to do these linky thingys. Motty, you could well be right. Have a look at, 'Are All Guns Steel proofed?' in Guns and Equipment and see the quote and text at Post #17. Then scroll down to the first photo at, www.shotshell.drundel.com/patterns/robdouglas.htm. This gives a good idea what Post #17 is on about. Don't be too hard on fruitloop though - you'd need to be called Digweed to hit 'owt with that. A shot just a tad off is going to end up with a wounded bird. Edited February 12, 2015 by wymberley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Thanks for that Gunsmoke; seems a bit more reassuring. I'm not sure BASC's subscriptions dept will be quite so reassured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Do you think John Swift should resign? Of course he should.This was not a personal e-mail - had it been it would have not been subject to the FoI (wonder if he made a mistake). His post at LAG is as an independent and having expressed that opinion he has in effect declared a prejudicial interest and should have immediately resigned. If he doesn't do so, then he should be removed from his post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) No BASC will not be on the back foot regardless of what happens. There will, no doubt, be changes in the future for shooting, we will lead those shooters who choose to face the future and understand that we live in a changing world, we will help them. Those who refuse to change will, I am afraid, probably end up worse off and grumble the most and spend lots of time finding someone to blame.... A quote from earlier in this sometimes bitterly contested thread, strangely wrong (?) but perhaps prophetic without understanding why at the time. Edited February 12, 2015 by Kes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC275 Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Christ on a bike, what a bloody mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Christ on a bike, what a bloody mess. The boy don't say much, but what he does makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) I have been thinking about 'The script' - quite a parting gift. No couldnt possibly be thats too foil hatish - isnt it W? Edited to a question. Edited February 12, 2015 by Kes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear68 Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 With the benefit of hindsight, BASC seems to have made a very serious tactical error; I assume they thought John Swift would be quietly sympathetic (or at least not hostile) but the recently released email seems to prove them wrong. Will they publicly call for him to resign or maybe even express their dissatisfaction with him making comments that can hardly be viewed as impartial? I don't think a statement that he no longer represents BASC is sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'm not sure BASC's subscriptions dept will be quite so reassured. That avatar makes me smile each time I see it. Brilliant. Must get a similar one. Would one of John Swift be in bad taste do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 With the benefit of hindsight, BASC seems to have made a very serious tactical error; I assume they thought John Swift would be quietly sympathetic (or at least not hostile) but the recently released email seems to prove them wrong. Will they publicly call for him to resign or maybe even express their dissatisfaction with him making comments that can hardly be viewed as impartial? I don't think a statement that he no longer represents BASC is sufficient. The question is how much did they know? I believe they know and the research committee minutes prove it. Remember John Swift was hiring BASC staff for 25 years. Do you think he would recruit people that did not think the same as he did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) I'm done with BASC at renewal time. It's CA for me from now on, I've just pulled the BASC sticker out of the wagon and stuffed it in the bin. The cap badge with it. Just an observation, there seems to be much focus on 'what will happen to lead shot' and not much thought to 'what will happen to rifle bullets and air gun pellets' if restrictions are put in place. The alternative to copper jacketed lead bullets are expensive and poor in comparison. There is of course no alternative for air gun shooters, the whole sport would be finished at a stroke. I have no doubt that if lead shot is first on the list everything else will follow in a natural progression. After all, it would be an easy argument to make; 'we've banned lead shot but there are still thousand of toxic lead based bullets and pellets being shot every year [insert rhetoric here]' etc... Edited February 12, 2015 by mick miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Basc hasn't had to look to far for controversy and many people like nothing better than some basc bashing, i've been a member/supporter for almost 30 yrs and generally think they have done a pretty good job and ofen the critisim is unfair, sadly doesn't seem to be the case here. But they have failed big time on this, i'm actually struggling to get my head round how they can have ducked up so badly, it just beyond belief. Why would the 'voice of shooting' not want a voice on the most important panel for a generation??? Crazy. Even having the 1 voice u have sitting there with a gag and hands tied behind his back trying to be impartial (and he hasnae even managed that,, althou batting for the wrong side now) Do u think the CA would be happy to have BASC as they're sole voice/representation (no matter how well briefed they were) on a hunting review panel. Off course they wouldn't. It does seem awfully fishy about these specific emails being leaked, Why now? and why only those ones? Possibly it may turn out to have been edited or made to look worse, but if everything is as it stands the now thee will be a lot of P45's flying around marford mill in the near future as u are going to lose a hell of a members. I just wish so other org does syndicate insurance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Just read the FOI email...I'm shocked at John Swift's arrogance. BASC must have their head in their hands, distanced as they are. It certainly seems as if the LAG is dysfunctional in terms of conversation and agreement. What angers me is that JS has taken an anti-lead stance, despite his (self-proclaimed) "40+ years steering various groups around the lead minefields" - well, what turned you against us? In my opinion JS was a disappointingly meek and ineffectual BASC chairman, who is now verging on abusing his position rather than collating and representing a fact-based, impartial report. He talks of the unpredictable nature of the effects of lead shot and its accumulative toxic properties, WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE OF DETRIMENTAL EFFECT?? He talks about "the annual dispersal of thousands of tons of deposited lead" IN WHAT QUANTITIES ARE THESE DEPOSITS INGESTED BY WILDFOWL & HUMANS?? We need a lead ban on wetlands, that and that only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitloop Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I really don't want to see a lead ban, but your view on steel shot is ridiculous. Could it be your shooting that was to blame for your poor results with steel? Watch the pinkfoot shooting in it's entirety - shot with 4.5mm steel. hi motty this is not a que to have a spat or fall out over this but I have totally no faith in steel. and even on your video you had to finish 1 or 2 birds off with ether a 2nd barrel or retrieved by the dog .all I was asking is there is a bit in the emails about comparable carts in price and performance ?? but they don't exist I admit I am not the best shot in the world but I don't like the thought of just injuring and then chasing or putting so much steel in it that I becomes inedible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Just go back to the start, BASC only started to fight the fight when there were leaked details of advice given about a ban being inevitable. It was a pr disaster then so a public front had to be put on, this is just more of the same trying to get and maintain membership while a ban occurs. Now when they have just had a boost of a ban being over turned in another country it should be easier than ever to fight. The stance of fighting for our laws to be kept different to the Scottish version is nonsense if you want to find a workable approach to keeping the birdies happy. NGO for me next year I reckon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 hi motty this is not a que to have a spat or fall out over this but I have totally no faith in steel. and even on your video you had to finish 1 or 2 birds off with ether a 2nd barrel or retrieved by the dog .all I was asking is there is a bit in the emails about comparable carts in price and performance ?? but they don't exist I admit I am not the best shot in the world but I don't like the thought of just injuring and then chasing or putting so much steel in it that I becomes inedible This happens equally with lead. I just wanted to show that some good clean kills can be had with steel shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Basc hasn't had to look to far for controversy and many people like nothing better than some basc bashing, i've been a member/supporter for almost 30 yrs and generally think they have done a pretty good job and ofen the critisim is unfair, sadly doesn't seem to be the case here. But they have failed big time on this, i'm actually struggling to get my head round how they can have ducked up so badly, it just beyond belief. Why would the 'voice of shooting' not want a voice on the most important panel for a generation??? Crazy. Even having the 1 voice u have sitting there with a gag and hands tied behind his back trying to be impartial (and he hasnae even managed that,, althou batting for the wrong side now) Do u think the CA would be happy to have BASC as they're sole voice/representation (no matter how well briefed they were) on a hunting review panel. Off course they wouldn't. It does seem awfully fishy about these specific emails being leaked, Why now? and why only those ones? A few people have thought BASC a little too arrogant and rather disinterested or ineffectual on certain issues. Also, their approach to dissent amongst members isnt exactly 'listening'. Those who disagree are BASC bashers and yet look where we are now. The recently ex- Chief Executive of BASC dumps shooting members who have paid his salary for years and BASC says he is no longer a member. Not exactly fullsome repudiation of a monumental betrayal, whilst all at BASC were and are repeating the mantra - 'no evidence no ban'. Protecting shooting ? You pays your money and makes your choice. Doesnt it make you ask a few questions about how this could have happened ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett1985 Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 There is of course no alternative for air gun shooters, the whole sport would be finished at a stroke... there are alternatives, BUT, its the whole steel vs lead argument again. i have used the zinc pellets to great effect in a couple of my air rifles, but in most that i have used them in they have been inaccurate and unreliable. this will be a long and very drawn out issue for absolutely everyone in the shooting community, it affects every last person who owns a gun or rifle of any sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 4.4. There was discussion over the need to enforce compliance of the current law. 4.5. The group noted comments from the shooting representative that a recent unpublished survey of game consumption by BASC and CA members suggests that 90% shooters report never selling their ducks. 4.6. The group noted the comments of the game dealers’ representative that one large UK game dealer buys 90% of their ducks from Scotland and sells to butchers all over the UK (including England). That said, the group also noted that a large number of ducks is known to be shot and marketed in England and that game dealers who provided the analysed ducks had said the ducks had been sourced locally. 4.7 The group agreed that there is evidently a continuing risk to be addressed due to continued lack of compliance. Minutes of the L.A.G. for Feb 2014. Since CA is 'the shooting representative' - I'd say their data was correct. The interpretation is obvious. point 4.6 rather suggests that the sampled game bought could have been from where the species ban is not law, so much so that the last sentence of 4.6 was added. "who provided the analysed ducks had said the ducks had been sourced locally." - not exactly compelling evidence that an unbiased sample was bought. You pays your money and makes your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Extract from Hansard 2012 Gentleman, to wait for John Swift and his team in the Lead Ammunition Group to report in spring 2013. They have been looking at the key risks to wildlife from lead ammunition and the levels of those risks, and they intend to explore possible solutions if those risks prove to be significant. They will also report on the options for managing the risk to human health from the increased exposure to lead as a result of using lead ammunition, if measures need to be taken. I am confident that the group will take a balanced and measured view on the basis of evidence. That is why I am looking forward to that report. I think the hon. Gentleman shares that view and is concerned that there may have been early misrepresentations of what is likely to emerge. There seems to be a bit of a history of misrepresentations of what is likely to emerge. I am sure the Minister in making these statements, particularly the penultimate underlined quote, will be as disappointed as all shooting members will be - it hands the WWT and RSPB a gift - good old Swiftie ! This is NOT BASC bashing - Its reporting facts - you can ignore my opinions, judge the facts yourself. Edit Added the last sentence for clarity - I will be doing more research to find the moment when 'expectations' changed Edited February 13, 2015 by Kes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Regardless of what some who wish to constantly accuse BASC of complacency or worse, we have been successfully fighting off calls for a total lead ban for over 25 years and will continue to do so. Why wouldn't we? I have explained the set up of LAG and BASC's involvement, again regardless of what some accuse , we were actively involved Lots has been said about these emails, but these emails are not the official response from the LAG, we still await that, and what we will be doing after the LAG report is published, we have clearly said on our web site...have any other organisations done the same? This is the time to stand together , not split apart. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Regardless of what some who wish to constantly accuse BASC of complacency or worse, we have been successfully fighting off calls for a total lead ban for over 25 years and will continue to do so. Why wouldn't we? I have explained the set up of LAG and BASC's involvement, again regardless of what some accuse , we were actively involved Lots has been said about these emails, but these emails are not the official response from the LAG, we still await that, and what we will be doing after the LAG report is published, we have clearly said on our web site...have any other organisations done the same? This is the time to stand together , not split apart. David It would have been nice if the "we" at the start of the second phrase of your first sentence in particular, but also elsewhere, could have been translated as, 'all at BASC'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Fair enough. but the simple fact is that BASC have been defending all of you and your rights for many many years, years before others even 'came to the party' I am pleased other organisations are now well on side, But for anyone to come on here and claim BASC is not up to the mark, or that BASC are not doing its best or have done anything wrong is totally incorrect. Think about it for a moment, why on earth would BASC not do all it can to deliver for its members and the shooting community as a whole. look w hat we have posted on our web site, and rest assured we are very much on the case Lets stop this pointless infighting, lets wait to see what the LAG report says and what Defra's reaction is, just like we have said on the BASC web site, than lets stand together to all fight our corner David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Regardless of what some who wish to constantly accuse BASC of complacency or worse, we have been successfully fighting off calls for a total lead ban for over 25 years and will continue to do so. Why wouldn't we? I have explained the set up of LAG and BASC's involvement, again regardless of what some accuse , we were actively involved Lots has been said about these emails, but these emails are not the official response from the LAG, we still await that, and what we will be doing after the LAG report is published, we have clearly said on our web site...have any other organisations done the same? This is the time to stand together , not split apart. David David, you simply cannot (with credibility) ignore what this has done to shooting, or the links to BASC. You may wish to, I would have been very happy for BASC to make this test a triumph and gather membership accordingly - I would even have reconsidered my position as a non-member. Any way you cut it, its bad, denying its bad doesn't add to BASC's remaining credibility, as others have suggested. CA have (apparently) distanced themselves and as your advocate on the LAG, how will that affect the BASC memberships' views in the drafting of the report and recommendations ? You need to look at what Mark Avery is saying and decide if it gives a very much less than benign organisation a foothold to question the remaining voice of shooting on the L.A.G. Politically how many members has the RSPB, what influence has the FSA, the WWT? Come on - its bad. Edited February 13, 2015 by Kes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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