ordnance Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) Quote. (The police would have to get to the mall first,even if you arm all police you cannot stop someone walking into a crowded place and pulling a trigger.) Do you not think if all police officers were armed on and off duty in England there is a better chance of police being able to respond quicker, than if they had to wait for armed response. And not sit back and wait like with lee rigby, where the attackers had plenty of time and opportunity to kill other civilians if they had wanted to. Edited May 5, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Quote. (The police would have to get to the mall first,even if you arm all police you cannot stop someone walking into a crowded place and pulling a trigger.) Do you not think if all police officers were armed on and off duty in England there is a better chance of police being able to respond quicker, than if they had to wait for armed response. And not sit back and wait like with lee rigby, where the attackers had plenty of time and opportunity to kill other civilians if they had wanted to. Even if there had been a police officer off duty and armed standing 100 yds away from Lee Rigby that would not have prevented his death he was hit by a car at speed and was probably dead instantaneously. Do people still get murdered in NI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) Quote, (Even if there had been a police officer off duty and armed standing 100 yds away from Lee Rigby that would not have prevented his death he was hit by a car at speed and was probably dead instantaneously. Do people still get murdered in NI?) I did not say it would have stopped the murder of Lee Rigby, but the attackers had time to walk around and talk to civilians and could have quite easily have murdered them while they waited for armed response, same thing in Cumbria. I also did not say people do not get murdered in Northern Ireland either, but the police being armed on and off duty means there is more of a chance of them stopping an attack. Are you going to try and argue with me that if all police were armed in England they could respond quicker to an attack, its simple maths. Quote. (The man who was shot dead by an off-duty police officer in Belfast was 29-year-old Marc Alexander Ringland. He was from the east of the city. He died during a suspected robbery at a petrol station on the Albertbridge Road at 1905 GMT on Thursday). Not a terrorist but it shows how an armed officer could be in a position to stop an attack. Edited May 5, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Quote, (Even if there had been a police officer off duty and armed standing 100 yds away from Lee Rigby that would not have prevented his death he was hit by a car at speed and was probably dead instantaneously. Do people still get murdered in NI?) I did not say it would have stopped the murder of Lee Rigby, but the attackers had time to walk around and talk to civilians and could have quite easily have murdered them while they waited for armed response, same thing in Cumbria. I also did not say people do not get murdered in Northern Ireland either, but the police being armed on and off duty means there is more of a chance of them stopping an attack. Are you going to try and argue with me that if all police were armed in England they could respond quicker to an attack, its simple maths. Quote. (The man who was shot dead by an off-duty police officer in Belfast was 29-year-old Marc Alexander Ringland. He was from the east of the city. He died during a suspected robbery at a petrol station on the Albertbridge Road at 1905 GMT on Thursday). Not a terrorist but it shows how an armed officer could be in a position to stop an attack. By the shear logic of numbers arming all officers will not stop people being murdered,Look at the population of the uk,Then look at the number of police officers,it is impossible for them to protect everyone. Yes some people will be saved the same as people are saved now by other people stepping in but being in exactly the right place at the right time is close to an impossibility. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11041691/Armed-robber-died-after-being-sat-on-by-passersby.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) Quote (By the shear logic of numbers arming all officers will not stop people being murdered,Look at the population of the uk,Then look at the number of police officers,it is impossible for them to protect everyone.) It would be ridiculous to suggest that the police being armed would stop all murders, that's why I did not suggest that. I was saying is in the event of a mass shooting by extremists, the odds are that they could respond quicker if they were all armed, I think that's common sense. The fact is if there is a shooting now even if police are on the scene, they are ordered to pull back and wait for armed response. As for people being murdered in Northern Ireland. A case of what goes around comes around, today. Quote. (Murder of former Belfast IRA commander. A former senior IRA figure has been shot dead near Belfast city centre. Gerard 'Jock' Davison, 47, was shot a number of times at Welsh Street in the Markets area at about 09:00 BST. ) Edited May 5, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cueball Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Commiting a terrorist attack in a place with quite possibly the most lax gun laws on the planet takes a special kind of stupid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 It would be an issue in England, because if there was a surprise attack shopping mall etc. The police would have to stand by and watch as civilians were murdered, while waiting for armed response. Agreed, hence the official line of advice to British civilians in the case of a terrorist attack being to run away and 'hide', and then contact the Police. in the uk there are numerous incidents where police are advised to wait for ar units,it is rare that anyone else gets hurt while they await Cumbria? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) Cumbria? RARE Edited May 5, 2015 by welsh1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Quote If one person walked into a busy shopping centre and fired an automatic rifle there would be many dead,it matters not that there are armed police in the area to respond the killing has already been done. Follow that logic and their is no point in arming any police including armed response as the killing has already being done, is that really what you think. Quote. I am sure the fact that's its RARE would be a comfort to the people murdered and injured, after the police had to pull back, and let the murdering continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Quote If one person walked into a busy shopping centre and fired an automatic rifle there would be many dead,it matters not that there are armed police in the area to respond the killing has already been done. Follow that logic and their is no point in arming any police including armed response as the killing has already being done, is that really what you think. Quote. I am sure the fact that's its RARE would be a comfort to the people murdered and injured, after the police had to pull back, and let the murdering continue. I am not going to argue with you any further, you have been shown the futility of your logic,we have had this debate in great detail in the past. Why don't you use america as your model, all officers are armed,a lot of the public are as well,do they still have mass murders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 RARE Oh well, that's ok then. It doesn't however, negate the fact that Bird only went to ground when he knew he was being hunted by armed Police, as did Hamilton. Prior to this both wandered the streets gunning down defenceless people in the knowledge they would be unopposed. Just a thought. Why don't you use america as your model, all officers are armed,a lot of the public are as well,do they still have mass murders? Do you mean like in their schools, where the killers know they will be unopposed as schools are 'gun free' zones and unpatrolled by Police, armed or otherwise? Being armed is no guarantee of surviving an attack, but all things being equal it can't be denied it definitely improves ones chances of survival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Quote I am not going to argue with you any further, you have been shown the futility of your logic,we have had this debate in great detail in the past. Why don't you use america as your model, all officers are armed,a lot of the public are as well,do they still have mass murders? There is nothing wrong with my logic, your logic is that there is no point in having any armed police including armed response. Most people would see that as flawed logic. Read my posts I did not say armed police would stop all mass shootings, feel free to check my posts and prove me wrong. As for America there are plenty of examples were armed police have intervened and stopped shootings and saved lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Quote I am not going to argue with you any further, you have been shown the futility of your logic,we have had this debate in great detail in the past. Why don't you use america as your model, all officers are armed,a lot of the public are as well,do they still have mass murders? There is nothing wrong with my logic, your logic is that there is no point in having any armed police including armed response. Most people would see that as flawed logic. Read my posts I did not say armed police would stop all mass shootings, feel free to check my posts and prove me wrong. As for America there are plenty of examples were armed police have intervened and stopped shootings and saved lives. I said i would not post anymore but please don't misquote me, i have not said that all armed response are pointless, just that arming all police does not do what you state. You insinuated that there would be off duty police at the scene of an armed shooting and by arming them they could stop the shooting. How do you know those police would be there?it would be shear chance,and even though one officer has done something amazing in the usa it is a rarity to win a fire fight against automatic 7.62 when armed with only a pistol. There are approx 130,000 police officers in England and Wales, and approx 63,000,000 people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Can we please stop the personal digs, It's things like that, that gets these types of topics removed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumfelter Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 . Where do these lines get drawn? Oh hang on, they are drawn in law - the law says cartoon are legal and shooting cartoonist is murder. Is this correct? As long as I put it in cartoon form I can say anything I like about anybody? Anybody? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) Apologies my quote is not working. Quote. (I said i would not post anymore but please don't misquote me, i have not said that all armed response are pointless, just that arming all police does not do what you state.) What you said bellow. The killing would have already have being done. As I said the logic of that statement, no point of armed police as the killing would have are have being done. Point out where I am wrong. Quote. ( Quote If one person walked into a busy shopping centre and fired an automatic rifle there would be many dead,it matters not that there are armed police in the area to respond the killing has already been done. Edited May 5, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Sorry ordnance but are you being deliberately obtuse if some one has already killed a load of people then shot himself as happens in most mass killings 1,an armed response unit would not have stopped it the killing has already been done 2,i never said the armed response unit should be stopped. Read my posts. That is my last word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Quote How do you know those police would be there?it would be shear chance,and even though one officer has done something amazing in the usa it is a rarity to win a fire fight against automatic 7.62 when armed with only a pistol. I don't know if the police would be there, but simple maths tells you that the more police armed the more likely that they could intervene. As for stopping people armed with automatic rifles with a handgun it happens, one thing for certain if you are not armed you won't stop them. Quote. The heavily armed gunmen had been in the house from the morning before, keeping the householder hostage. As I drove down the lane to the house I had my gun [a Walther pistol] under a coat on the front seat, Eric recalled. The minute I pulled up one guy came to the drivers door he had a gun [an automatic rifle] with binder twine on it slung round his neck and the other one had a revolver. They came running out shouting and swearing get out of the van IRA. The one with the revolver ran up to the passenger door. I cocked the gun and fired three shots out through the passenger side, Eric said. The body of Joe MacManus, 21, from Sligo was later recovered from the scene. Eric took cover behind the front wheel of the van and opened fire on two further gunmen armed with Kalashnikov-type rifles behind a low wall no more than 20 metres away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) Quote, Sorry ordnance but are you being deliberately obtuse if some one has already killed a load of people then shot himself as happens in most mass killings. I will check but I don't think you said anything in your original post about them shooting themselves did you. ? plus they don't usually shoot themselves until they are cornered by armed police. But you are right there is no point in continuing if you are going to move the gold posts. Edited May 5, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Is this correct? As long as I put it in cartoon form I can say anything I like about anybody? Anybody? Pretty much. Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sha Bu Le Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Quote, (Will he now be suspended pending investigation? NO, this didn't happen in England. Other countries have moreby common sense). It would be an issue in England, because if there was a surprise attack shopping mall etc. The police would have to stand by and watch as civilians were murdered, while waiting for armed response. Not "if" Ordnance........... WHEN We have had bombings committed by political and religious factions. We have had mass shootings committed by nutters, it is only a matter of time before we have a mass shooting by religious zealots. There are plenty of shopping centres where it would take armed response cops maybe an hour to get there. Does not bear thinking of the number of injuries that could be inflicted during a quarter of that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjh Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Not "if" Ordnance........... WHEN We have had bombings committed by political and religious factions. We have had mass shootings committed by nutters, it is only a matter of time before we have a mass shooting by religious zealots. There are plenty of shopping centres where it would take armed response cops maybe an hour to get there. Does not bear thinking of the number of injuries that could be inflicted during a quarter of that time. sadly your right i can see in the not to distant future an event involving a group motivated by the current crop of nutters, i wouldn't be surprised if they used legally obtained weapons that would be the end of gun ownership in any form in the UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye18 Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 When seconds count the police are only minutes away.go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sha Bu Le Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 sadly your right i can see in the not to distant future an event involving a group motivated by the current crop of nutters, i wouldn't be surprised if they used legally obtained weapons that would be the end of gun ownership in any form in the UK I Sincerely hope you are wrong Chris, when one considers the quantity of illegal firearms in this country (it would only be a guess I don't think the authorities have any idea) it says to me that it is a piece of cake to get guns into the country. If that is indeed true then I believe anyone committing such an atrocity would opt for automatic weapons. It would only take the diplomatic bag of a sympathetic state. On that one I hope I am wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 sadly your right i can see in the not to distant future an event involving a group motivated by the current crop of nutters, i wouldn't be surprised if they used legally obtained weapons that would be the end of gun ownership in any form in the UK I can certainly see something happening in the UK by these terrorists , but cannot see it happening with legally held arms that's for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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