Jay_Russell Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 Part of my permission is a few acres of fruit with a real rabbit problem. Ive shot a few with a shottie but i cant really get close enough. The land borders my shoot so theres a chance of a fox or so. Max range is 150 yds but mostly 80 -100 yds from the hedge where i will sit and the area with the rabbits. Now i was thinking 17hmr as rifles and amunition are cheap, and flat tragectory but i understand essex firearms dont like that calibre for fox. Should i apply for vermin and AOLQ? Am i likely to get that and will it cover me for fox and rabbit? I dont want two rifles because of cost and it will prob only be the odd shot at a close fox. Any advice appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 I regularly use the .17 hmr for close foxes (upto around the 100yd mark) and it does the job, others will disagree. If you are having trouble with the firearms dept allowing it why not try .22 wmr or even think about a .17 or .22 hornet (expensive for large quantities of rabbits unless you fancy reloading). Personally I would ask for the .17 hmr with A.O.L.Q condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Russell Posted June 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 One of the chaps i shoot game with is well into his rifles, so i had some advice from him the .22 with its rainbow tragectory has put me off a bit plus its very stoney so he suggested the .17hmr. Apart from rifles in the army including marksman i have know real knowledge of the various calibres and pros and cons with them. I defo wont go down the homeloading route Would it be worth me having an off the record chat with my feo and asking what he recomends? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 I was talking about a .22 wmr which is a totally different kettle of fish to the .22 (.22lr) your friend is talking about. Have a little Google on either .22 wmr or .22 magnum (same round). Having a chat with your feo is probably a waste of time as most haven't a clue about theses things, your best bet is have a good chat with your game shooting pal and if you feel he is clued up on this subject take his advise. Either of the two I've mentioned should be suitable as long as you don't try stretching the distances you shoot your foxes at. Good luck with your research and I hope you find what you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Russell Posted June 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 Thanks for your help, i see u chaps discussing wmr etc etc and i dont have a clue in the differences so ill take ur advice and do some googling then once ive learnt a bit more ill have a chat with the guy. I think he knows his stuff he goes of round the world hunting, deer stalking and has many years experience. Just at a work party i didnt get much chance before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1steele Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 .22 wmr (Winchester magnum round) is a very useful and underrated rimfire and is quite often dismissed in favour of the .17 hmr (Hornady magnum round). Most people that own the .22 wmr wouldn't want to part with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 If you're limited to one rifle, have two different cartridges. Something flat (ish) shooting for the rabbit and a bit of a brute for fox. 40gr RWS or 50gr Federal, say, for the latter and something 30gr ish for the former. The one rifle that will permit this is the 22WMR. The penalty is not as flat as the 17HMR, but the bonus is the extended effective range for fox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 WMR shooting 33gr is a fine close range foxing tool and was my round of choice for years of urban foxing I have all the usual rimfires and would always keep this one and the .22lr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Russell Posted June 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 What sort of range is the 22wmr comfortable at guys?,will there be anything left of the rabbit? And is it likely to be granted on a first application? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 What sort of range is the 22wmr comfortable at guys?,will there be anything left of the rabbit? And is it likely to be granted on a first application? As it's a rimfire, it's highly unlikely that it won't be granted. There will not be that much difference between one being shot with the WMR or an HMR. The comfortable range is largely down to your good self but for fox with an appropriate round it is a solid thumper out to the 100 yards plus a tad if conditions suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Russell Posted June 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 Thank you. Pacing it out puts the range needed between 80-100yds as the fields are in strips so thats all i will need for this permission. Now what about the stoney ground? I know the hmr is handy for unlikely ricochet is the 22wmr similar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 Thank you. Pacing it out puts the range needed between 80-100yds as the fields are in strips so thats all i will need for this permission. Now what about the stoney ground? I know the hmr is handy for unlikely ricochet is the 22wmr similar? Can't answer. My shooting borders a pebblebed heath so the ground is also very stoney but I never had a problem with the WMR using either of the two "brutes" i mentioned. On the other hand, I'm deaf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 (edited) .17hmr = 235 ftlbs with 17 gain .22wmr =350 ftlbs with rws 40 grain soft points If both rifles zerod at 100 yards and shooting out to 200 yards your looking at a trajectory of approx... 17hmr 8"drop 22wmr 17"drop with the above ammo which i tested the other night Edited June 6, 2015 by stevo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 Simply buy an hmr for rabbits and the occasional fox and then consider something centre fire. Once you start shooting foxes you will get the bug, as a rabbit rifle the hmr is very good perfectly acceptable on the odd fox and as long as your placement is ok you won't have a problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savhmr Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 For 80-100 yds, I would have my 22 WMR over my HMR any day of the week. Almost as accurate with greater kinetic energy at 100 yds so better for fox at that distance. Just zero for 100 yds and check zero at 80 to compensate. there wont be much difference. More useful in windy conditions too. For shorter ranges out to 80yds on rabbit, I would use hollow point subs in a moderated .22 because you can afford the odd miss without scaring the rabbit population off. A moderated 22LR is almost as silent as an air rifle if not more so. If the ground is very stoney, the HMR might be the safer tool though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 Keep life simple. Just ask for .17HMR for rabbit control and ask for the AOLQ condition (which tends to be normal now anyway). That keeps the police happy and covers you for what you need. Frankly, I would not even raise the subject of foxes - why complicate things. At some time in the future, if you have the inclination and the bank balance and have seen enough foxes to warrant it, buy a second rifle suitable for foxes and possibly deer. If you want quiet shooting and can accept a shorter range, consider .22lr. Personally though, in your circumstances, I would start with .17hmr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 anything will bounce, dont think for a second a VMax will vapourise in every situation I zero both HMR and WMR at 100yds, my WMR produces touching holes at 100yds and I just point and shoot to anything out to 120. drop at 150yds is approx 1-1.5 Minutes of bunny ear! never really shot anything beyond 150yds with either to be honest rabbits are much messier with the faster round though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Wmr= Winchester magnum rimfire. 167paces, off hand. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyflier Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 If you don't have to shoot the foxes, they might help with the rabbit problem but otherwise, I've used a .17HMR out to 100 yards very successfully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) Wmr= Winchester magnum rimfire. 167paces, off hand. Blimey U. Thats in better shape than the one i shot last night . I had one at 90 yrds using cci maxi mag gold dot 50 grn HP it was in a right mess . I would have been ashamed to take it to the game dealers ;-) U. Edited June 8, 2015 by stevo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Maughan Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I wouldn't thank you for a 17HMR, Ive owned one and although at times very accurate there is just far too much of a problem with the ammo. Split necks and squibs that leave a bullet up the barrel are too much like hard work. If you Google problems with HMR there are pages upon pages of evidence to support this. The 17HMR sounds like the perfect caliber for what you want but the reality is at times very different. Now something like a 17 Hornet might be a different matter altogether, it will give you all the fox killing power you need and will make 150yd rabbits a very realistic option, factory ammo or the option to reload if you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) Part of my permission is a few acres of fruit with a real rabbit problem. Ive shot a few with a shottie but i cant really get close enough. The land borders my shoot so theres a chance of a fox or so. Max range is 150 yds but mostly 80 -100 yds from the hedge where i will sit and the area with the rabbits. Now i was thinking 17hmr as rifles and amunition are cheap, and flat tragectory but i understand essex firearms dont like that calibre for fox. Should i apply for vermin and AOLQ? Am i likely to get that and will it cover me for fox and rabbit? I dont want two rifles because of cost and it will prob only be the odd shot at a close fox. Any advice appreciated This goes round and round, there isn't a single gun/calibre to cover all eventualities with rabbit and fox. However, many people seldom find the need to shoot fox past 100 yards, they are easy to train and with little encouragement can commonly be brought within that range, so any rimfire could be capable in those circumstances, I tend to use HMR or WMR just the same for the close ones over .22lr, but that still deals with plenty. Obviously for the opportunist or commonly distant foxes more power will be required, but then you take the calibre out of the realms of rabbit gun! Fox IS vermin according to the latest Home Office Guide, so anybody with a Vermin condition against anything can shot the fox with it. I'm struggling to see any Police force bringing a prosecution against any shooter for taking fox with only vermin on their FAC, when all the defence has to do is hold up the guide and tell them to argue with their Head Office not the FAC holder. Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law March 2015 Shooting Small Quarry Species, including Game and Pest Species (Vermin) 13.19 The term "game" covers certain birds and animals that may be shot for food and sport. These include pheasant, partridge, grouse, ptarmigan and ground game (rabbits and hares). The term "vermin" is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel, brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such as rook and crow. Whilst species including wood pigeon and corvids are regarded as pests Edited June 8, 2015 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Wmr= Winchester magnum rimfire. 167paces, off hand. Blimey U. Thats in better shape than the one i shot last night . I had one at 90 yrds using cci maxi mag gold dot 50 grn HP it was in a right mess . I would have been ashamed to take it to the game dealers ;-) U. That's one of those none expanding soft points! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 .17hmr = 235 ftlbs with 17 gain .22wmr =350 ftlbs with rws 40 grain soft points If both rifles zerod at 100 yards and shooting out to 200 yards your looking at a trajectory of approx... 17hmr 8"drop 22wmr 17"drop with the above ammo which i tested the other night I think he said 150 yards Max, but 80-100 mainly, at that distance HMR or WMR is fine, personally I think 150 yards with either is an occasional shot, and if you were looking at that distance regularly I would be drawn to something a little more powerful. Where did you get the info on RWS 40g SP being 350Ft lb, I'm not aware of many .22WMR up there, most top out about 320-330 ft lb. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I think he said 150 yards Max, but 80-100 mainly, at that distance HMR or WMR is fine, personally I think 150 yards with either is an occasional shot, and if you were looking at that distance regularly I would be drawn to something a little more powerful. Where did you get the info on RWS 40g SP being 350Ft lb, I'm not aware of many .22WMR up there, most top out about 320-330 ft lb. Cheers Can be confusing. Originally the RWS was in excess of 350 ft lbs - I can't remember the exact velocity but it was in excess of 2000 ft/sec. Now they're 1954 (595 m/s) V0 which equates to 339. PS Hang on found it: 2020/362. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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