Savhmr Posted June 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Dear oh dear folks, come on, peace! Time to call Time Out for a second. If I may: Forget the definitions and minutia of detail. It's how others perceive the term "Weapon" and by association those who hold said "Weapons". Whilst I personally regard my firearms as exactly that, rifles designed for sporting purposes, others may not. We need to be doing more to protect the future of what we (almost) take for granted now, or face ever increasing politically correct and liberalist views on gun ownership restricting use and eventually banning privately held firearms. That is the sole purpose of some lobbyists already. With that in mind, the question remains "do you think in todays day and age that reference to our shotguns and rifles as weapons does us any favours?" The answer, I would argue, is "No" which is why I pick up on the issue when discussing with others as their perceptions are often misguided and ill educated. Once you start to describe what you use was actually designed for and how it's used and differs from military weapons, the penny sometimes drops that we're not a bunch of nutters wandering the rural landscapes armed to the teeth with things that are more commonly seen in war movies, spraying bullets indiscriminately all over the place. Some people really do have perceptions akin to this! I just think it's down to being responsible in everything from gun handling to how we describe things. That may not win friends at parties but neither would discussing the finer points of EU corruption and the Referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Exactly! By that definition, Breastmans example of the Anschutz TARGET rifle is a weapon because it is designed to inflict physical damage to a piece of paper! Ridiculous! Some people are starting to sound like tree huggers around here! Just waiting for WELSH1 to make some leap as to why that rifle is derived from a military rifle! Does it have a trigger a breech, a barrel down which a projectile is fired? Wake up ladies it is a weapon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchiet123 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Does it have a trigger a breech, a barrel down which a projectile is fired? Wake up ladies it is a weapon By your own definition it is not a weapon! So would you say that a 1 joule bb gun is a weapon because it fires a projectile down a barrel using a trigger as a release mechanism? even though it was never designed to cause harm, and couldn't even if you tried? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 By your own definition it is not a weapon! So would you say that a 1 joule bb gun is a weapon because it fires a projectile down a barrel using a trigger as a release mechanism? even though it was never designed to cause harm, and couldn't even if you tried? have you actually read the firearms act and what the definition of a firearm is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muffin Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Savhmr I agree what we as a minority do will make no difference, We will never change the rabid antis view, We have to influence all those who do not know one way or the other they are our future whether we like it or not so all should show a responsible front in all matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchiet123 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 have you actually read the firearms act and what the definition of a firearm is? So now you're going back to the use of the word firearm, not weapon? perfect. And yes I have thank you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Savhmr I agree what we as a minority do will make no difference, We will never change the rabid antis view, We have to influence all those who do not know one way or the other they are our future whether we like it or not so all should show a responsible front in all matters. Something you're going to have limited success with people who should no better and Walts refering to their firearms as weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 So now you're going back to the use of the word firearm, not weapon? perfect. And yes I have thank you.... Would you like to tell everyone what a firearm is classed as? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchiet123 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 On top of that, some people have seemed to missed the point that most firearms are weapons, by the definition of the word, but some are definitely not, and were never intended to be used as weapons. With regards to the OP, I believe his point was the fact that people associate negative things with the word weapon as opposed to sporting gun or firearm, shotgun etc. So why go around calling your gun a weapon? What's the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I don't go around calling my rifle a weapon, but i am trying to make the point that by definition it is a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchiet123 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Would you like to tell everyone what a firearm is classed as? No because I am not petty and that would be a waste of time... I don't go around calling my rifle a weapon, but i am trying to make the point that by definition it is a weapon. Yes but some people do, especially FEO's as stated by the OP. Now that you've made that statement, hopefully we can agree that firearms and shotguns are usually weapons by classification, but there is no point going around calling them weapons as there's no point, it only aggravates a lot of people and [promotes legitimately and legally held sporting tools as weapons used to inflict harm on animals and humans. Time to lock the thread now I suppose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 No because I am not petty and that would be a waste of time... Yes but some people do, especially FEO's as stated by the OP. Now that you've made that statement, hopefully we can agree that firearms and shotguns are usually weapons by classification, but there is no point going around calling them weapons as there's no point, it only aggravates a lot of people and [promotes legitimately and legally held sporting tools as weapons used to inflict harm on animals and humans. Time to lock the thread now I suppose? At last someone gets it,and hopefully others will think twice by pulling up people up for using the term weapons, because those people are using the correct terminology,it may be something you object to as the op inferred, but those people are correct. And i also agree it is time to close this thread as we have been round the block a dozen times.and will get no furthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Would you like to tell everyone what a firearm is classed as? Post 97 defined (apparently from a dictionary!) the differences between what a firearm, a gun and a weapon is...............in answer post 99 explained why a .22 RF is not a Weapon under the definition given in that post. You can tell me as many times as you like that red is white but I'm afraid to me.........red will always be! .......yep you've guessed it red! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Post 97 defined (apparently from a dictionary!) the differences between what a firearm, a gun and a weapon is...............in answer post 99 explained why a .22 RF is not a Weapon under the definition given in that post. You can tell me as many times as you like that red is white but I'm afraid to me.........red will always be! .......yep you've guessed it red! Then you should read the definition in the firearms act because that is the legal position of what a weapon is. and you .22 sporter glx multi shot is by legal definition a weapon, and when you go to court should you do some thing foolish you tell the judge why you think it's not a weapon and see how far you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Then you should read the definition in the firearms act because that is the legal position of what a weapon is. and you .22 sporter glx multi shot is by legal definition a weapon, and when you go to court should you do some thing foolish you tell the judge why you think it's not a weapon and see how far you get. Dunno what a .22 sporter glx multi shot is? but if the legal definition of a weapon differs from the dictionary definition of a weapon, and the dictionary definition differs from the legal definition........one is undoubtedly wrong!.............. the question is which one? In the unlikely event that I were to unlawfully use a .22RF rifle (or air rifle, or a pencil!) as a weapon then I would not try to argue the point with a judge!.............but when I lawfully use said .22RF rifle for vermin and target shooting I maintain it is being used as a rifle!.........it is not a weapon! That is the last post from me on this matter.....but if you want the last word please feel free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Dunno what a .22 sporter glx multi shot is? but if the legal definition of a weapon differs from the dictionary definition of a weapon, and the dictionary definition differs from the legal definition........one is undoubtedly wrong!.............. the question is which one? In the unlikely event that I were to unlawfully use a .22RF rifle (or air rifle, or a pencil!) as a weapon then I would not try to argue the point with a judge!.............but when I lawfully use said .22RF rifle for vermin and target shooting I maintain it is being used as a rifle!.........it is not a weapon! That is the last post from me on this matter.....but if you want the last word please feel free! ‘Firearm’ means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged. This includes any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon or not, any component part (see Chapter 13) of such a lethal or prohibited weapon, and any accessory to any such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon. 2.4 ‘Lethality’ is not defined in legislation, but the Firearms Consultative Committee in its Eleventh Annual Report recommended that any barrelled weapon with a muzzle energy of 1 joule or more should be considered lethally barrelled. However, this is a complex issue and, although case law exists (Moore v Gooderham (1960)), only a court can decide whether a particular weapon is capable of causing a lethal injury and would therefore be considered a firearm for the purposes of the Acts. Providers of forensic science services will be able to advise in any case where ‘lethality’ is likely to be an issue. Firearms law also covers some other weapons, including stun guns and CS, which are prohibited items under the terms of section 5 of the 1968 Act (see Chapter 3 for further information). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Explain please Ross,,it was you that thought I would say a kitchen knife and a sword were both weapons,I never said it it was a weapon and have agreed with you and then given my reason as to why I agree. And as to your bolt action analogy I have again explained why I disagree with you and given some examples. It's not a difficult concept to grasp,if something was designed with the purpose of injuring someone it is a weapon,you can paint it pink and call it Mabel but it will still be a weapon. Ok, let me try and say this in a really simple way for you. You have said many times on this thread that a sporting rifle is a weapon as the intended purpose of the original design of the rifle was to injure people (see your above quotation) My argument is that the same could be said of a kitchen knife, because it too is a DERIVATIVE of a weapon, the original intended purpose of which was to injure people. Let's leave the bolt action thing, I was referring to the calibre (.22) being unsuitable for combat - but never mind. On the contrary, I cannot grasp why you think that sporting guns or rifles are weapons when they are patently not designed to 'injure someone.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Does it have a trigger a breech, a barrel down which a projectile is fired? Wake up ladies it is a weapon By this rationale a humane killer is a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 By this rationale a humane killer is a weapon. A purpose-made, single-shot weapon, which has a chamfered muzzle and vented barrel to facilitate its use with the muzzle end of the barrel in full contact with the target http://www.hsa.org.uk/humane-killing-of-livestock-using-firearms-equipment/humane-killer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 By this rationale a humane killer is a weapon. Great oximoron! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Still think that the point is being missed. I don't know if there is such a figure of speech, but if there is, would a weapon not be defined as an adjectival noun? As a weapon is defined as any instrument with which to fight, then any arm will simply be a rifle, pistol or whatever until such time as its proposed use is defined. Well, unless of course, there's some really monstrous rabbits that do put up a fight. In that respect, with one particular trout yesterday, my diawl bach qualified as a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Still think that the point is being missed. I don't know if there is such a figure of speech, but if there is, would a weapon not be defined as an adjectival noun? As a weapon is defined as any instrument with which to fight, then any arm will simply be a rifle, pistol or whatever until such time as its proposed use is defined. Well, unless of course, there's some really monstrous rabbits that do put up a fight. In that respect, with one particular trout yesterday, my diawl bach qualified as a weapon. I which case it would be a "rifle weapon" as the noun (in this case weapon) is always preceded by the noun used as the adjective, which in this case would be rifle. The plural would be rifle weapons. So, just for clarification, this afternoon, when I jump into the tractor to go mowing silage, I will take a couple of rifle weapons with me in case I get a bit of sport on the crows feeding on the fresh cut . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 I which case it would be a "rifle weapon" as the noun (in this case weapon) is always preceded by the noun used as the adjective, which in this case would be rifle. The plural would be rifle weapons. So, just for clarification, this afternoon, when I jump into the tractor to go mowing silage, I will take a couple of rifle weapons with me in case I get a bit of sport on the crows feeding on the fresh cut . I would have said weapon rifle as 'weapon' is the adjectival bit. 'ere, this IS fun isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livefast123 Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Think how much shooting time has been lost during this thread. You will never change the viewpoint of the Goverment, Police or anti's, they will always be weapons. The Government and police fear that the guns will be used against them and anti's hate them for killing their fluffy wuffy buggsy. The best way to change normal peoples opinion is to take them out to bust a clay, punch some paper or even shoot some fresh meat. I have gained us 4 new fac / sgc's in the last couple of years and even those who didn't continue changed their opinion and that includes a RSPB member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 I would have said weapon rifle as 'weapon' is the adjectival bit. 'ere, this IS fun isn't it? I just knew you would say that.............. All I know is I'm completely cheesed off, grass is still too wet to mow so no chance of me taking my "rifle weapon" out for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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