Is the Brexit referendum too early?

[djrwood]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u2tR4AKugF0

 

This is worth a watch. Even Jean Claude juncker thinks it's a one way benefit. Surprised I haven't seen this publicised more

[12gauge82]

For me the EU is cancer, Brexit the chemo.

 

I cannot believe anyone who comlained about the Westminster expenses scandal would want to stay shackeled to a bunch of unelected, unaccountable, greedy parasites who make our own lot look like amateurs.

 

Big business want to stay in because it stifles competition. The EU has less growth than any other economic area. It is overburdened with red tape and tariffs. EU customers are getting less significant for UK exports each passing year.

 

The EU is positively anti democratic, and that alone is enough for me.

 

Atb

I feel the same, couldn't have worded it better myself

[Danger-Mouse]

For me the argument had mainly been the Leavers shouting "conspiracy" and "bias", trying to rubbish decent research while offering up the sort of "pub bore" anecdotal "I can't walk down my road for benefit-claiming Muslims" evidence that they expect/demand anyone listening accept as "fact".

 

DM, your posts are obviously not in that category.

 

I'll have a look at the Hampden Trust and The Freedom Association and come back.

 

Cheers.

 

Whilst we`re on the topic of conspiracy though take a look at this article . . .

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-think-tanks-carrying-out-independent-research-to-support-brexit-have-close-links-to-a6866011.html

 

Now take a look at a few links from the IEA

 

http://www.iea.org.uk/about

 

http://www.iea.org.uk/about/iea-stance-on-the-european-union

 

http://www.iea.org.uk/in-the-media/press-release/mark-littlewood-on-the-eu-referendum

 

And finally, as the economic argument is so important to you. Let`s dispell those nasty little rumours Remain has been spouting about us losing all our trade deals

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/674792/proof-Britain-will-not-lose-trade-deals-leave-EU-Chancellor-George-Osborne

[Granett]

DM, I'm not sure I follow your line of thought.

 

It appears to be that the IFS research supporting Remain has had its detractors, and so does the Institute of Economic Affairs, and therefore they should be given equal weight.

 

Is that fair?

[Danger-Mouse]

DM, I'm not sure I follow your line of thought.

 

It appears to be that the IFS research supporting Remain has had its detractors, and so does the Institute of Economic Affairs, and therefore they should be given equal weight.

 

Is that fair?

 

Apologies if I didn`t make it clear. You have in previous posts made several references towards many of the leave campaigners complaining about conspiracies. In the first article I posted we can clearly see the remain campaign making similar claims regarding the IEA reports/views.

 

No, I would have to disagree. The IFS admits to funding from both Government departments and the EU itself (19% of it`s total funding). As I said in my earlier post this leads to a very reasonable doubt as to the veracity of any reports or statements they make. After all no organisation is going to endanger it`s funding. The IFS saying Britain would be better off out would be akin to the Director of the BBC coming out and saying that he felt the TV licensing fee should be abolished. Not quite so extreme I`ll admit, but you get my drift.

 

The IEA however, and this is copied from one of the links,

 

" It takes no corporate position on whether Britain should stay in the European Union and a wide range of views are held by the Institute’s staff, trustees and wider supporters.

 

The IEA does not impose a doctrine of “collective responsibility” on the statements of its staff. Staff members are free to express any view they wish as long as these are consistent with the overall mission of the IEA.

 

Indeed, such are the differences of opinion amongst IEA staff that in March of this year, the Institute is hosting a public debate at its offices between one staff member who supports Remain and one who supports Leave.

 

The IEA will continue to produce research on the topic of Britain’s relationship with the EU over the coming months and years. The research is wholly independent of both the Remain and Leave sides of the referendum campaign. The IEA looks forward to engaging with people of all persuasions in order to help bring about a more free market Britain, whether we remain as a member of the European Union or not."

 

I am sure that there are those that fund the IEA that are pro-Brexit but it seems equally likely that some funding will also come from pro-Remain benefactors and quite possibly from some who are as yet undecided.

 

The difference between the two organisations is very clear to me. One has a very vested interest in remaining in the EU. The other seems to gain little irrespective of the result. Officially at least, it is independent of any political party or group. And it, again officially, has no overall view/policy as to remaining or leaving.

 

For the Remain campaign to criticise the IEA whilst happily promoting the views of other organisations who have a very vested interest in remaining in the EU is either a pack of lies or sheer hypocrasy.

 

Hopefully that clears things up.

[Granett]

DM, my fear is that lots more Leavers share your view that the Institute of Economic Affairs is more impartial than the IFS and deserves as much (if not more!) credibility.

[Danger-Mouse]

DM, my fear is that lots more Leavers share your view that the Institute of Economic Affairs is more impartial than the IFS and deserves as much (if not more!) credibility.

 

Why would they not? I`ve already stated my reasons for giving them more credit than the IFS. The evidence seems pretty clear to me. If you can provide evidence to refute any of my claims then please do so. If you can find any reasons at all to prove their opinion is worth more than that of the IEA, then again, please do so.

 

I suspect though that even if you prove without a shadow of a doubt that the IEA is nothing but a lickspittle pawn of the Brexit campaign it will do little to change any hardline Brexiter`s vote. As in my case the economic argument is not their primary worry. Sovereignty, democracy and in some cases immigration are far more important issues.

 

If you could prove it you might swing some fence sitters over to your side. But I`m not particularly worried about that because I sincerely doubt you can.

 

I struggle to see why you cannot see the likelihood of bias in the IFS report. Perhaps you can explain why that is?

[silver pigeon69]

That's an estimate. Truth is, no one knows. However, the possible damage an exit may cause is neither a positive nor a cogent argument to remain.

 

Granett, just out of interest did you ever in the past argue that the UK should adopt the Euro currency?

Granett, i think you missed this question, so i re-posted it for you.

[Granett]

No I haven't. Does that mean you're going to ask Rodp to come back and flesh out his points on Muslims (ie answer the questions I posed)?

 

DM, the IEA wikipedia entry states that it has been ranked "one of the three least transparent think tanks in the UK in relation to funding."

 

It funded a 100k "IEA Brexit Prize".

 

Its Director General Mark Littlewood featured prominently in the film "Brexit: the Movie"

 

On the other hand, one of the most senior economists campaigning to leave has said attacking the IFS's integrity was a mistake.

 

"A strategy of responding to serious, thoughtful, economic analysis by simply playing the man and not the ball, calling people corrupt... It just seems silly to me...

 

People are just not going to buy a story which says that people like the IFS, who were criticising George Osborne a year ago or two years ago, are now suddenly people who arent able to have their own kind of opinion on things.

 

He added: I used to work for the IFS, they were very independent, academically-minded people; they wouldnt be interested in doing anything that anybody else told them to do.

 

He suggested he had been told by Vote Leave the inclusion of the attack was a mistake."

 

https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/75407/brexiteers-distance-themselves-vote-leave-attack-ifs

[Granett]

DM, if you're not going to be persuaded of why the Institute of Economic Affairs is not given the same wide-spread respect as the IFS then I agree it might be best to move on to the arguments you (and I'm sure a lot of people more certain than me) hold more important.

 

It has massively helped me to understand why Leavers believe that there is an economic argument for leaving, so thanks.

[Granett]

DM, what have been the main instances for you that showcase the loss of British democracy and sovereignty as a result of her EU membership?

[achosenman]

Does there need to be a showcase for loss of democracy ? It is an acknowledged fact. That is unacceptable...period.

 

Atb

Edited May 30, 2016 by achosenman

[Granett]

I'm interested in what democracy and sovereignty has been lost specifically from EU membership - as opposed to compromises necessary for trade relations for example. Or EU legislation that we'd have introduced independently had we been outside Europe

[achosenman]

I suspect as far as your concerned, one mans loss of sovereignty is just a compromise to you. Ask the fishermen how they feel about being banned from fishing UK waters. That debacle was directly attributable to the EU. It probably didn't affect you though, so no worries. The list of rank stupidity is seemingly endless. The EU is nothing more than a dictatorship. They hide it as best as they can, but that's all it is.

 

I think it is best remembered that freedom to choose, to make mistakes, to have a relevant voice in how society is shaped is of such value to free people that wars have been fought over it. The self selected ruling elite now ensconced in the halls of Brussels, will have to learn the hard way.

 

At this point in the proceedings those who know how they're going to vote, won't be swayed by the other side. The main thing I hear from the literally hundreds of those undecided that come into the barbers shop my missus owns, is that they don't understand the issue. That's been an easy fix AFAIC.

 

Atb

[Granett]

Calm down. I'm after factual examples of where a concession has been made where in no circumstances we wouldn't have otherwise made that concession.

 

I fully appreciate that it's an emotive subject that people here and elsewhere want to debate on feelings and passions rather than fact.

 

But we can all get that anywhere we want.

 

I just wanted to see if there was a factual or rational basis for the vote to leave and whether many Leavers were voting on that basis or on another basis.

[clam6364]

If the referendum was a vote to join the EU and you were told foreign labour would be given priority over over local skilled men,over 50% of your laws would be made by the EU,that you would have to give up your exclusion zone around our coast to allow fellow EU countries to Fishin your waters and that there would be a CAP that would cripple your farming industry,that if your heavy industry were in trouble the government wasn't allowed to help,that they plan to have a European army,that you would have to have open borders to over 500 million Europeans and it would cost you a gross payment of 59 million pounds a day . How would you vote ?

[Granett]

What are your sources?

[Granett]

This is an interesting article about fishing and the EU (with a lot of quotes from people in the industry).

 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/business/international/many-in-british-fishing-port-want-eu-out-of-their-waters.html

 

Interested to read more (from similarly balanced sources).

[clam6364]

I don't think you would find many fisherman wanting to remain in EU ,common Fishery Policy has been a disaster ,now the discards ban which they are hailing as the next best thing to conservation,small unmarked able fish and non quota species which used to be put back into the sea many still alive,now have to be kept on board the boat and landed ashore,what they don't want to tell you I sit goes into landfill,

[achosenman]

Not interesting in the least. Same "might" being peddled as fact by those that want "in"

 

The EU is not democratic. It can never be.

 

Atb

[Granett]

Achosenman, Have you got any sources I can read?

 

Anything?

 

Which of the fishermen's quotes in that article are you saying they have made up?

Edited May 30, 2016 by Granett

[four-wheel-drive]

The sad thing about this hole sorry saga is whoever is in charge of this country it will not be for our benefit of the ordinary working people things will never really change the rich will get richer and the rest of us will struggle on.

[silver pigeon69]

No I haven't. Does that mean you're going to ask Rodp to come back and flesh out his points on Muslims (ie answer the questions I posed)?

 

So you just chose to avoid answering it? But then again Rodp didnt answer his questions so i suppose that makes it ok?

[sitsinhedges]

Achosenman, Have you got any sources I can read?

 

Anything?

 

Which of the fishermen's quotes in that article are you saying they have made up?

 

It's funny how some newbie can come onto this forum with little real interest in actual shooting, no gun and few posts yet they feel they have the right to demand that other long term contributors justify every position they hold with regards to the referendum. Who the hell do you think you are newbie, and will you crawl back under your stone once the referendum is over.

[silver pigeon69]

This is an interesting article about fishing and the EU (with a lot of quotes from people in the industry).

 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/business/international/many-in-british-fishing-port-want-eu-out-of-their-waters.html

 

Interested to read more (from similarly balanced sources).

None of the fishermen in Hastings (the largest beach fishing fleet in the UK) want to stay.