Is the Brexit referendum too early?

[achosenman]

I didn't say made up, I said "might" being peddled as fact. That is to say, this might happen or that might happen. My sources are freely available on the web. I'm sure you are well aware of them, as is your right, you just choose to ignore them.

 

You spectacularly fail to address the democracy issue. This is because you can't. I work for a very large EU company, they love the EU and all the red tape and tariffs. It maintains the status quo for them, but I will still be voting out.

 

I want democracy, not a hidden dictatorship. Democracy is something the EU has not delivered in 43yrs and will not deliver in the next 43yrs.

Edited May 30, 2016 by achosenman

[silver pigeon69]

I didn't say made up, I said "might" being peddled as fact. That is to say, this might happen or that might happen. My sources are freely available on the web. I'm sure you are well aware of them, as is your right, you just choose to ignore them.

 

You spectacularly fail to address the democracy issue. This is because you can't. I work for a very large EU company, they love the EU and all the red tape and tariffs. It maintains the status quo for them, but I will still be voting out.

 

I want democracy, not a hidden dictatorship. Democracy is something the EU has not delivered in 43yrs and will not deliver in the next 43yrs.

Totally agree ^^^

[Granett]

I'm asking for reasoned or factually supported arguments to leave. Nobody debating is taking it personally. (If they are, pm me and I'll not respond to your posts). I suspect most here are big enough and ugly enough to be up for a forthright discussion (if not, again, pm me and I'll leave it alone).

 

I would have hoped that the fact I'm relatively new shouldn't mean that some statements being made "as fact" without basis cannot be challenged.

 

Silverpigeon, I was answering the question - I haven't argued for the Euro.

 

 

Achosenman, I was hoping for an example of when the say of the British voter has been diminished through being in the EU.

 

Ive seen arguments Pro Remain that say "the UK would have had to enact that EU law".

 

Further, other arguments have been made that things like worker's rights, beach cleanliness, and (now, having read a bit about the subject) sustainability of British fishing gave all been advantageous to British people and forced upon the British government by the EU.

 

I am still trying to make up my mind (although frankly there's been very little decent suggested reading Pro Leave) but I don't share your optimism in the British government suddenly delivering on all this

 

To my eye it's not been the fault of the EU that Britain isn't doing better.

 

To some extent (exactly what open to debate) the EU is a convenient scapegoat.

[achosenman]

Sorry Granett I don't believe you are a fence sitter. You will vote in as is your right.

 

As for the rest of your post, you are kidding right, the British voter not been diminished!!!

 

I believe you are just a troll

 

Atb

Edited May 30, 2016 by achosenman

[silver pigeon69]

Granett- apologies, i thought you were saying you would not answer the question.

Also it should not matter whether you have 1 or 1000 posts, your opinions/discussion etc are still as valid as any members on here and you have as much right as any member to ask for explanations/proof etc.

 

I dont blame the EU for many of Britains problems. The main reason i want out is because i do not want to be ruled by an un-elected person/organisation. I think that we all agree a democracy is the way forward not technically a Dictatorship, which the EU is. No one voted Junker in as such. I also beleive that the UK is more than capable of making our own rules and regulations, most of the laws around the world, that we have today were made/orriginated in the UK.

 

The only arguements that the Stay camp has is that if we leave, we will be in financial ruin and will lose millions of jobs. These are the EXACT claims that were made by the Euro fanatics when we had the £pound V's Euro vote. History has shown that these claims were totally wrong. There is not one person now who can dispute that fact. We are 100% better of for keeping the £pound.

The other is that prices for imports will go up. If we leave it is up to us what import tax we levy. Do people really think that Germany/France etc will put excessive import tax on our exports? if they do we will do the same to their imports. We import over twice the amount we export. They arn't that stupid, and if they are, we will benefit twice as much as them from it. We are the second biggest purchaser of BMW's after Germany

[rodp]

 

So you just chose to avoid answering it? But then again Rodp didnt answer his questions so i suppose that makes it ok?

No, I've been away for the bank holiday and got back a couple of hours ago. I've since read the later posts and am now convinced Granett is just trolling so abstained from getting involved any further.

[silver pigeon69]

sorry rodp, wasn't having a go, was just quoting what i thought Grannet was useing as an excuse, but i had the wrong end of the stick! (ps Toyotas are still better )

[Danger-Mouse]

DM, what have been the main instances for you that showcase the loss of British democracy and sovereignty as a result of her EU membership?

 

It`s very difficult to provide specific examples. Even legal experts can`t agree what percentage of our laws come from the EU.

 

But it`s the whole system. We have unelected, at least by the public, Eu Commissioners who have significant powers over our lives. Once laws are enacted by that commission it`s very difficult to overturn them. Look at the entire fiasco over female sanitary products and VAT.

 

These are recent quotes by the President of the European Commission. If after reading them you don`t believe that this man and his organisation are a threat to democracy and our sovereignty then I suspect you are a lost cause.

 

On British calls for a referendum over Lisbon Treaty

“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?,”

 

On French referendum over EU constitution

“If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’,”

 

On the Lisbon Treaty

"There is a single legal personality for the EU, the primacy of European law, a new architecture for foreign and security policy, there is an enormous extension in the fields of the EU's powers, there is Charter of Fundamental Rights"

 

On Greece

"There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties"

 

This is an organisation that also ordered the Irish back to the polls when the result it wanted was not returned. Can you imagine the furore here if on June 24th Cameron said "Sorry guys I know you`ve voted out but I don`t fancy that so we`ll have another referendum in 3 months time"?

 

There would, and quite rightly so, be absolute outrage amongst the population and quite possibly rioting on the streets

[12gauge82]

I can't believe anyone is even thinking of voting remain, I don't care what carrots the EU dangles, so long as the price of that is giving up a democracy I.e electable delegates who can be voted out by the UK population they can go to hell, my ancestors didn't die in the second world war for me to willingly hand control of the UK to foreign unelected politicians in the EU.

[rodp]

sorry rodp, wasn't having a go, was just quoting what i thought Grannet was useing as an excuse, but i had the wrong end of the stick! (ps Toyotas are still better )

No problem SP

 

 

 

And no they're not

[Granett]

DM, thanks for your last post. That's a lot of food for thought.

 

I'm still very much torn. This forum is the most Pro Leave I've seen, and I've played devil's advocate to a degree to try and get some decent reasoned arguments to vote leave - in the absence of anything decent from those spearheading either side's campaigns.

 

Your posts have been the most helpful in that regard.

 

I'm going to bow out now! I didn't intend ruffling so many feathers.

 

My view on the basis of what I've read here is that the vote will be decided on people's perceptions on sovereignty.

 

I've still little faith that Britons' best interests will be served better by a British government outside the EU than within it. I also feel the world has moved on since the world wars which so firmly established our independence. I say that with the utmost respect and gratitude for the sacrifices of those who won us that independence.

 

Thanks for the debate all. Now back to asking newbie questions about shooting.

[ShootingEgg]

I can't believe anyone is even thinking of voting remain, I don't care what carrots the EU dangles, so long as the price of that is giving up a democracy I.e electable delegates who can be voted out by the UK population they can go to hell, my ancestors didn't die in the second world war for me to willingly hand control of the UK to foreign unelected politicians in the EU.

+1

[Danger-Mouse]

DM, thanks for your last post. That's a lot of food for thought.

 

I'm still very much torn. This forum is the most Pro Leave I've seen, and I've played devil's advocate to a degree to try and get some decent reasoned arguments to vote leave - in the absence of anything decent from those spearheading either side's campaigns.

 

Your posts have been the most helpful in that regard.

 

I'm going to bow out now! I didn't intend ruffling so many feathers.

 

My view on the basis of what I've read here is that the vote will be decided on people's perceptions on sovereignty.

 

I've still little faith that Britons' best interests will be served better by a British government outside the EU than within it.

 

You`re welcome Granett.

 

I`m glad that even if I haven`t convinced you to leave, that at least I`ve given you some food for thought on reasons why you might want to.

 

Don`t worry about ruffling feathers. It happens all the time on here.

 

As to your last point, well to paraphrase . . . . "I don`t find your lack of faith disturbing". You may well be right. However at least we can throw them out every 5 years and try another bunch. The same cannot be said about Juncker and his ilk.

[rjimmer]

It was reported yesterday that the Turkish leader has advised his people not to practice contraception so that people of his religion can become a majority.

In a recently reported survey, 12M Turks want to come to the UK.

Like Gadaffi said, "We don't need to attack you. We will send 1M men who will each have 6 wives, and each wife will have 6 children."

It was reported yesterday that the Turkish leader has advised his people not to practice contraception so that people of his religion can become a majority.

In a recently reported survey, 12M Turks want to come to the UK.

Like Gadaffi said, "We don't need to attack you. We will send 1M men who will each have 6 wives, and each wife will have 6 children."

And our benefit system will fund it!

Edited June 1, 2016 by rjimmer

[ditchman]

in another few weeks when the weather settles down...the channel and the coast from norfolk to kent will be like a re-run of bloody Dunkirk..........in the 70's the indians were been flown in on light aircraft by good old charlie wharton, to secret norfolk strips...and some fishermen were picking them up in holland and halfway over told them to jump in....which was i admit a bit naughty...and he got caught as well..............

 

so i think the referendum is just a little bit early and is only giving a "taster" of what is to come next ......

[Danger-Mouse]

 

 

so i think the referendum is just a little bit early and is only giving a "taster" of what is to come next ......

 

Say what you like about "Call Me Dave", but he`s not daft. He has a very good idea what the summer will be like and that`s why he didn`t wait until 2017 for the referendum.

[ShootingEgg]

Well i just found out that pretty much my whole office are for staying.. And i got completely attacked for wanting out... And asked why. Why. Why. Its strange how people get so caught up and emotional.. I for one do feel the eu is not serving the purpose it should. But like one person in the office said "I dont feel affected and am scared of what might happen if we leave".. Sums it up really.

[Danger-Mouse]

Well i just found out that pretty much my whole office are for staying.. And i got completely attacked for wanting out... And asked why. Why. Why. Its strange how people get so caught up and emotional.. I for one do feel the eu is not serving the purpose it should. But like one person in the office said "I dont feel affected and am scared of what might happen if we leave".. Sums it up really.

 

Get them to watch "Brexit The Movie", that might change a few minds.

[ShootingEgg]

 

Get them to watch "Brexit The Movie", that might change a few minds.

Good luck getting them to do that....

[Danger-Mouse]

Good luck getting them to do that....

 

That kind of thinking (their`s not your`s) makes me mad. This is the most important political decision we`re ever likely to face and yet people will vote without looking into the discussion. I have no problem with people voting either way, as long as it`s an informed decision they`re making. I know Granett ruffled a few feathers with his questions but at least he`s asking them rather than being one of the sheeple and just blindly voting despite knowing little or nothing about the subject.

[12gauge82]

 

That kind of thinking (their`s not your`s) makes me mad. This is the most important political decision we`re ever likely to face and yet people will vote without looking into the discussion. I have no problem with people voting either way, as long as it`s an informed decision they`re making. I know Granett ruffled a few feathers with his questions but at least he`s asking them rather than being one of the sheeple and just blindly voting despite knowing little or nothing about the subject.

+1

[ShootingEgg]

They have their opinion of the people leading the leave campaign and think that is a bad thing. Not looking past it. In all honesty i wouldn't say i am 100% clued up on it all but my feelings are that we will be able to manage this country without being in the union. We will trade, with europe and the rest of the world. We will not have to plough money into a "club" to get some back. To be held down by the red tape.. Watched a program on the beeb and one company said they had to refuse orders from Brazil due to the EU not having an agreement with them.. How is that progress

[Vince Green]

Let me tell you about a boss I had nearly thirty years ago. Probably the worst boss in the history of British Industry. He never made a decision -ever. Faced with a problem he would call a meeting and waffle. The outcome of the meeting was always "we are going to monitor the situation"

 

When he finally had to do something because doing nothing was no longer an option his choice would be totally illogical, based on some bizarre inconsequencial item of detail that had no bearing on the core problem.

 

How a person like that can be trusted to vote in any election or referendum is beyond human comprehension, but he will and there are a lot more like him

[wymberley]

This country bumpkin is finding it all too much to grasp. From experience gained in Europe in the early 70s, which way to vote in 75 was quite easy to decide and as I've not seen any evidence since that that decision was incorrect, will be casting a similar vote in a couple of weeks. What I would like to know is what, if any, - and my innate cynicism suggests there will be some - future proposed 'legislation' has been put on hold until after the 23rd on the grounds that prior announcement could well have affected the 'in' result.

[achosenman]

Cynicism is not to blame. They have freely admitted that some new legislation is on hold because it's unhelpful to the remain vote.

 

Atb