Pitting and pattern

[Glenlivet]

I seem to be getting variable patterning from my little old .410 using Lyalvale 14g 2 1/2" carts (Fourlongs are even worse). The barrel is showing some pitting so I was wondering if this could affect patterns. Wads in these cartridges are card.

[fortune]

Is it really going to make any real difference? You never know you might even connect with a few more. There are lots of Guns with pitted barrels out there in common use and the owners don't even consider the fact slightly important.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, i would not think to make much different to pattern but depending where pitted, i feel sure mine ( double hammer S/S side lever) back in the old days had a few marks, first shotgun at 15 and i just treasured it,

[TONY R]

If you had asked me this 20 years ago i would have saoid exactly the same as the above.

But in my quest for every last % at long range, i did look to other forms of shooting inspiration some of those those little known to uk shooters turkey hunting was one of them.

_{This sport is obsesive about patterning the tighter the better and a hot techneque in turkey hunting is polishing barrel bores to a high standard to improve patterns.}

_{I first read this in a article in petersens hunting magazine, and tried to polish up the bore of my Ithaca Mag ten, and i must say i did notice a difference from standard.}

_{I think polishing up a bore makes a difference, obvoiously hard chrome bores are impossiblew to polish but on normal barrel steel bores its an aspect of patterning i take a lot more seriously than i would have done before looking at turkey hunters patterning techniques.}

_{Lots of info online these days look on any turkey hunting forum or page there will be a whole section of posts on this very subject, they take it seriously and i understand why.}

[Glenlivet]

It might seem as if I'm being a bit anal but the pits are quite deep (big thick heavy barrel so no danger) and with such a narrow bore it's hard to imagine no effect on pattern.

[neutron619]

It's conceivable that pellets could interact with the pitting and become deformed and that this may worsen patterns by creating more "fliers" but I doubt the effect is either measurable or quantifiable.

 

Much more likely to create variable patterns are the following features which are especially relevant to the .410:

• The longer shot column puts a greater proportion of the pellets in contact with the barrel as they travel down it, giving more potential for deformation and therefore "fliers". It doesn't necessarily follow that a greater proportion of the pellets will be deformed, but it makes it possible, hence extra variability.
• .410s tend to be over-choked and the effect of this is to force pellets together and deform them more as they pass through the choke than in, say, a 12 gauge, because there is less diameter through which all the pellets must pass and therefore less likelihood that there will be a "space" into which a pellet encountering the choke can be deflected. Much more likely it hits another pellet and both are deformed. (I'm not entirely happy with that description, but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at.)
• In a .410, smaller powder charges are still loaded by machine at speed. Explanation: if I load 10 grains of powder with a variability of 1 grain either way, I've got a range of 20% (i.e. -10% to + 10%) of charges with respect to the intended charge. If I do the same in a 12 gauge load where I intend to load 25 grains of powder, my variability is 8% (i.e. -4% to +4%). This in turn means much less variation in pressure and muzzle velocity. Whilst this won't necessarily make the pattern in a 12 gauge load quantitively better or worse, it should mean that the overall quality between shells is less variable. Bad-patterning shells will be more consistently bad, and so on.
• Finally, there is the simple question of "number of shot". People are much less good at interpreting patterns where a larger proportion of the pattern plate is empty. Unless you're using #7½ or smaller shot in a .410, any pattern is going to look rather patchy and whilst that won't necessarily make it unusable, it does make it more likely that the human eye / brain will interpret two patterns with exactly the same mathematical density as being wildly different in quality. In a shameless plug, I suggest you go here (https://www.cfsa.co.uk/pages/public/ballistics.aspx?calc=pattern) and put in the settings which describe the cartridges / gun you're using. Look at the variability in the number of smaller circles you can get in the patterns generated. Some "lucky" patterns will evenly cover the whole plate; others will cover it in those smaller circles, representing 5" areas in which no pellet has struck.

I hope some of that is useful. In short - the pitting isn't going to be doing much for or against your patterns.

 

Adam.

Edited June 8, 2016 by neutron619

[Old farrier]

Brilliant 😂😂😂😂😂

 

And all supposition

 

Theory is fine however unless you have a pattern sheet from when the gun was new you wil never know

Many of the older guns (and modern) were built down to a price and a gambler lot when you bought them

 

Kettle on 😊

All the best

Of

[neutron619]

Brilliant

 

And all supposition

 

Theory is fine however unless you have a pattern sheet from when the gun was new you wil never know

Many of the older guns (and modern) were built down to a price and a gambler lot when you bought them

 

Kettle on

All the best

Of

 

Erm: "potential"; "doesn't necessarily follow"; "possible"; "tend"; "less likelihood"; "more likely"; "won't necessarily"; "won't necessarily"; "more likely".

 

Yep, nine helpful constructions which indicate that what I was saying was supposition and not fact. Glad you've managed to work that one out old chap.

 

Might I inquire whether, on the basis of the OP's post, you actually expected anyone to respond with anything but supposition?

 

I mean, it's not as if we actually have his gun, cartridges or a ballistic laboratory to hand to take measurements and do a proper analysis, right?

 

And presumably he doesn't have those things available either, else he wouldn't be here, on PigeonWatch asking the questions about it?

 

(Yup - some more supposition there.)

Edited June 8, 2016 by neutron619

[Glenlivet]

It's conceivable that pellets could interact with the pitting and become deformed and that this may worsen patterns by creating more "fliers" but I doubt the effect is either measurable or quantifiable.

 

Much more likely to create variable patterns are the following features which are especially relevant to the .410:

• The longer shot column puts a greater proportion of the pellets in contact with the barrel as they travel down it, giving more potential for deformation and therefore "fliers". It doesn't necessarily follow that a greater proportion of the pellets will be deformed, but it makes it possible, hence extra variability.
• .410s tend to be over-choked and the effect of this is to force pellets together and deform them more as they pass through the choke than in, say, a 12 gauge, because there is less diameter through which all the pellets must pass and therefore less likelihood that there will be a "space" into which a pellet encountering the choke can be deflected. Much more likely it hits another pellet and both are deformed. (I'm not entirely happy with that description, but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at.)
• In a .410, smaller powder charges are still loaded by machine at speed. Explanation: if I load 10 grains of powder with a variability of 1 grain either way, I've got a range of 20% (i.e. -10% to + 10%) of charges with respect to the intended charge. If I do the same in a 12 gauge load where I intend to load 25 grains of powder, my variability is 8% (i.e. -4% to +4%). This in turn means much less variation in pressure and muzzle velocity. Whilst this won't necessarily make the pattern in a 12 gauge load quantitively better or worse, it should mean that the overall quality between shells is less variable. Bad-patterning shells will be more consistently bad, and so on.
• Finally, there is the simple question of "number of shot". People are much less good at interpreting patterns where a larger proportion of the pattern plate is empty. Unless you're using #7½ or smaller shot in a .410, any pattern is going to look rather patchy and whilst that won't necessarily make it unusable, it does make it more likely that the human eye / brain will interpret two patterns with exactly the same mathematical density as being wildly different in quality. In a shameless plug, I suggest you go here (https://www.cfsa.co.uk/pages/public/ballistics.aspx?calc=pattern) and put in the settings which describe the cartridges / gun you're using. Look at the variability in the number of smaller circles you can get in the patterns generated. Some "lucky" patterns will evenly cover the whole plate; others will cover it in those smaller circles, representing 5" areas in which no pellet has struck.

I hope some of that is useful. In short - the pitting isn't going to be doing much for or against your patterns.

 

Adam.

Thanks for that, very interesting and a lot more variables than I had considered. This is my first .410 so I don't have anything to compare to. I haven't put it on a pattern plate but do get some surprising results on occasion which have got me thinking. I generally keep shots to 25 yards or less as variations seem more 'manageable ' at shorter ranges.

[neutron619]

Thanks for that, very interesting and a lot more variables than I had considered. This is my first .410 so I don't have anything to compare to. I haven't put it on a pattern plate but do get some surprising results on occasion which have got me thinking. I generally keep shots to 25 yards or less as variations seem more 'manageable ' at shorter ranges.

 

Very glad to be of help. As I've been obliged to reiterate above, none of what I've said should be taken as explaining, factually, what's going on - we'll probably never know.

 

There are however, established general trends which go some way to indicating the likely causes of what you're seeing and this is what I've tried to describe above.

 

Going forward, a series of patterns on a plate will probably be useful to you, if you can arrange it, but to reassure you, nothing I've heard seems out of the ordinary for the behaviour of a .410.

 

If you're feeling confident, I'd expect you to be able to push it out to 35 or perhaps 40 yards, dependent on the choke and provided you're using #7 or #7½, but the variations being smaller at shorter ranges does make sense mathematically speaking* and 25-30yd is a good limit to self-impose.

 

Enjoy it - I'm currently between .410s and can't wait to pick out my next one.

 

Adam.

 

 

* = The pellets haven't has as much time to spread out, so though the pattern may be patchy, it's smaller overall and the gaps between the pellets are proportionately smaller, making it less easy for a bird to escape "through" it.

Edited June 8, 2016 by neutron619

[Old farrier]

 

Erm: "potential"; "doesn't necessarily follow"; "possible"; "tend"; "less likelihood"; "more likely"; "won't necessarily"; "won't necessarily"; "more likely".

 

Yep, nine helpful constructions which indicate that what I was saying was supposition and not fact. Glad you've managed to work that one out old chap.

 

Might I inquire whether, on the basis of the OP's post, you actually expected anyone to respond with anything but supposition?

 

I mean, it's not as if we actually have his gun, cartridges or a ballistic laboratory to hand to take measurements and do a proper analysis, right?

 

And presumably he doesn't have those things available either, else he wouldn't be here, on PigeonWatch asking the questions about it?

 

(Yup - some more supposition there.)

Not really

However a point you forgot the pitting may have inadvertently improved the pattern along with wear in the bore ect

As I said without the base line pattern from the gun at new and the similar cartridge it can't be any other

 

More tea

All the best

Of

[TONY R]

Pitting wont help patterns in any gun be it a .410 or not.

One search on google threw this up on barrel polishing, its just the top one of the search loads more all saying polishing bores works.

This page as a brief discription on how to polish a shotgun barrel, Spend an hour on your shotgun barrels do a before and after pattern test just at say 40 yards then you will know it works for yourself. https://marylandwhitetail.websitetoolbox.com/post/Barrel-polishing-5764999

[Glenlivet]

 

Very glad to be of help. As I've been obliged to reiterate above, none of what I've said should be taken as explaining, factually, what's going on - we'll probably never know.

 

There are however, established general trends which go some way to indicating the likely causes of what you're seeing and this is what I've tried to describe above.

 

Going forward, a series of patterns on a plate will probably be useful to you, if you can arrange it, but to reassure you, nothing I've heard seems out of the ordinary for the behaviour of a .410.

 

If you're feeling confident, I'd expect you to be able to push it out to 35 or perhaps 40 yards, dependent on the choke and provided you're using #7 or #7½, but the variations being smaller at shorter ranges does make sense mathematically speaking* and 25-30yd is a good limit to self-impose.

 

Enjoy it - I'm currently between .410s and can't wait to pick out my next one.

 

Adam.

 

 

* = The pellets haven't has as much time to spread out, so though the pattern may be patchy, it's smaller overall and the gaps between the pellets are proportionately smaller, making it less easy for a bird to escape "through" it.

I'm currently using size 6 shot as I'm culling squirrels (41 so far this year and counting) and I really prefer a clean kill. I tried Fourlong 5s but really didn't rate them. I'd really like a 3" chambered pump action but I've grown quite attached to my bolt action Grange 😀

Pitting wont help patterns in any gun be it a .410 or not.

One search on google threw this up on barrel polishing, its just the top one of the search loads more all saying polishing bores works.

This page as a brief discription on how to polish a shotgun barrel, Spend an hour on your shotgun barrels do a before and after pattern test just at say 40 yards then you will know it works for yourself. https://marylandwhitetail.websitetoolbox.com/post/Barrel-polishing-5764999

This looks interesting but how long would the barrels stay clean enough to make a difference, on a 100/150 bird sporting for example?

[neutron619]

I'm currently using size 6 shot as I'm culling squirrels (41 so far this year and counting) and I really prefer a clean kill. I tried Fourlong 5s but really didn't rate them. I'd really like a 3" chambered pump action but I've grown quite attached to my bolt action Grange

 

Yep, #6 is fair enough on squirrels, though on the large side as far as my personal preferences go. #5 is just way too big for such a small cartridge - there's no pattern density to speak of past 15-20 yards really and with the variability involved, it's quite possible to be "bang on" with your shot and the squirrel to run off unharmed. Obviously you still need to kill the critter, so it becomes a question of keeping the ranges down, which you're doing already. I wrongly assumed above that you were shooting birds, in which case the 14g/#7 I suggested works nicely.

 

 

This looks interesting but how long would the barrels stay clean enough to make a difference, on a 100/150 bird sporting for example?

 

Reason #1 of a long list of reasons I'm very tempted to call "********" and "groupthink" on the whole idea. I don't know enough about it to know whether it works or not, so I'm not going to say "it's ********" now, because I don't have any evidence for that. However, in no way am I convinced that it would a) make a difference; b) make the kind of difference described in that thread.

 

Put it this way: most things in life are subject to trends. Ideas come and go with each generation. Many are recycled. The good ones tend to get retained and reinforced. The bad ones tend to die slowly and quietly and after a few generations, disappear completely. To reference another recent thread, the use of 1 1/4oz cartridges for wing shooting has been a long-term feature of shotgun hunting. We've tried lighter, faster cartridges and slower heavier ones over the years, but the 1 1/8oz and 1 1/4oz 12 gauge cartridge have continued as "fixed points" in shotgun shooting for over 100 years. It's a traditional, historical fact and it's a fact because that load in a 12 gauge gives good, successful results.

 

Conversely, nowhere in the history of shotgun shooting have I ever found descriptions of people grinding or oiling barrels to improve pattern density. The nearest thing I can think of is back-boring / over-boring - shown to be essentially a marketing gimmick - which was supposed to improve recoil and patterning in certain shotguns. If the chaps on that forum with their oil and their power drills are actually removing material from the inside of their barrels, then maybe there could be some kind of physical effect - bigger barrel makes for drop in pressure, so lower velocity, ergo improved patterns, but even with my appreciation of supposition it's a struggle for me to make a leap like that.

 

Still - in the interests of being open-minded, I will go and experiment and report back at some point - it's always nice to learn something new, but I don't expect to see anything significant...

Edited June 9, 2016 by neutron619

[TONY R]

This looks interesting but how long would the barrels stay clean enough to make a difference, on a 100/150 bird sporting for example?

I only interjected the polished barrel aspect into this thread to try and reenforce the fact pitting in a bore wont help patterns, a clean polished bore is a good thing, all guns are built down to a price and sometimes finnish is not quite whats needed as standard for best performance.

So just like anything else in life that is not performing quite as good as ytou want, or if you want every last % in a pattern perhaps for spacific long range waterfowl or even that ellusive high tower shot you want to be the star on its time to start gaining an edge.

Looking at the polished barrel turkey gun patterns the evidence is there in the pictures, just google this and click images they are there to see for yourself.

So in my case i tried it for myself and was suprised how it improved pattern % compared to the clean stock barrel, i was sold on it right then and there on the pattern sheet, i simply do it routine now.

Its not for everyone i know, but cleaning residue is eassier none of that stubon plastric fouling anymore its much easier to clean, so its an all win deal no down sides to it.

I can not tell how bad your .410 is but if you can clean up any pitting practicaly yourself i pewrsonaly would do this.

It Will help to some extent i feel and for just a few mins work. One way to know for sure clean it up and compare the patterns, i know which i feel will be the best.

Edited June 9, 2016 by TONY R

[ChrisAsh]

Most modern guns have crome lined barrels so rather a pointless thing to do, maybe some very old 20-40 years old barrels it may make a difference

[TONY R]

Most modern guns have crome lined barrels so rather a pointless thing to do, maybe some very old 20-40 years old barrels it may make a difference

If you look you will see the turkey hunting fraternity do indeed polish hard chrome bores too,deep cleaning with JB etc makes improvements.

Edited June 9, 2016 by TONY R

[buze]

Actually, just the ease of cleaning is a good argument for me. My rather pristine 1975 B25 is quite a bit harder to clean the my wife's 425; the barrels, when dried and in full light show that they are not /mirrors/ and I'm fairly sure that is the reason why it's harder to clean... I wouldn't call them pitted clearly, but you can see small reflections that might explain it.

[Stonepark]

For small game, 5's penetrate enough to kill to 60 yards, 6's to 50 yards, 7's to 40 yards, 7.5s to 35 yards, 8's to 30 yards and 9's to 25 yards.

 

On a 2 1/2 inch 410, i would suggest that shot size would be best if no larger than 7.5 (which has enough energy to kill to 35 yards but your pattern will be failing at 30 yards).

 

So it will both pattern and kill to 30 yards without a problem.

 

If you are not bothered about a plastic wad have a look at the Eley Trap (if your supplier does eley, though they may have to order them).

 

If you wish to stick with your current cartridges (Lyalvale express) , get your supplier to order the 7's for you rather than 6's or 5's.

[Glenlivet]

For small game, 5's penetrate enough to kill to 60 yards, 6's to 50 yards, 7's to 40 yards, 7.5s to 35 yards, 8's to 30 yards and 9's to 25 yards.

 

On a 2 1/2 inch 410, i would suggest that shot size would be best if no larger than 7.5 (which has enough energy to kill to 35 yards but your pattern will be failing at 30 yards).

 

So it will both pattern and kill to 30 yards without a problem.

 

If you are not bothered about a plastic wad have a look at the Eley Trap (if your supplier does eley, though they may have to order them).

 

If you wish to stick with your current cartridges (Lyalvale express) , get your supplier to order the 7's for you rather than 6's or 5's.

I've been trying to get 7s but supply of .410 cartridges around here is limited. Plaswads are no good as the Hushpower specifies fibre.

[Stonepark]

I've been trying to get 7s but supply of .410 cartridges around here is limited. Plaswads are no good as the Hushpower specifies fibre.

Ask your supplier you get what you want next time they put an order in to cartridge makers.

 

It's what i have to do to get 3" no7 fibre as again local shops only stock no6 generally.

 

More that ask, the more shops will stock. I also take 10min to explain why 7 or smaller are best to shops but not sure how much sinks in.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Stonepark

[TONY R]

Actually, just the ease of cleaning is a good argument for me. My rather pristine 1975 B25 is quite a bit harder to clean the my wife's 425; the barrels, when dried and in full light show that they are not /mirrors/ and I'm fairly sure that is the reason why it's harder to clean... I wouldn't call them pitted clearly, but you can see small reflections that might explain it.

If you just polish out your barrels as the Turkey hunters do, you will be suprised how much eassier it is to clean, and your patterns will improve in % at all ranges.

One thing i will guarantee polishing them in this way will do only good and no harm whatsoever.

[Glenlivet]

Ask your supplier you get what you want next time they put an order in to cartridge makers.

 

It's what i have to do to get 3" no7 fibre as again local shops only stock no6 generally.

 

More that ask, the more shops will stock. I also take 10min to explain why 7 or smaller are best to shops but not sure how much sinks in.

I've had to order a slab of 7s as apparently it's a 'special' request.

 

That's a lot of squirrels!!!

[ditchman]

for what it costs..and you say the barrells walls are "meaty" why dont you get the bores cleaned up before the pitting gets too deep......

 

i have often seen what i thought was horrific pitting......but in reality the pitting is very shallow and easy to "polish/lap out"

Edited June 11, 2016 by ditchman

[Glenlivet]

for what it costs..and you say the barrells walls are "meaty" why dont you get the bores cleaned up before the pitting gets too deep......

 

i have often seen what i thought was horrific pitting......but in reality the pitting is very shallow and easy to "polish/lap out"

That's a good idea, I've had it done on a 12g but hadn't thought about it for this gun. In reality it's difficult to really assess the bore with it being bolt action. Might get it re-blacked at the same time. It's a £40 Bosher special but I've refinished the stock and fitted the Hushpower so a few extra quid spent would probably be worth it.