CharlesP Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 My neighbour bought an Armsan A620 a while ago. Quite quickly he realised (as did the small bunch of us that shoot with him) that the thing wasn't right. Every time we went shooting he would be suffering malfunctions, either stove-piping as an empty case failed to eject or the bolt failing to chamber a fresh cartridge. It went back to the shop, and after consulting the importer a new gun was supplied. Later we learned that the old one had been videoed by the shop owner, who was showing customers the clip of this gun behaving perfectly, and my chum was less than thrilled about this. The replacement gun is exhibiting the "failure to chamber" behaviour, and after discussions with the repairs chap at the importer it eventually went back to the shop this week for return and repair - it's still within the manufacturer's warranty period. After a week he rang the shop, and was told thgat the importer didn't want it sent back, but asked the shop owner to take it out and shoot it, which apparently he did, complete with video. The result was two misfeeds out of seventy five shots. The importer puts this down to the shop owner "not holding the gun correctly". The importer further informs my mate that the earlier gun he returned has been used lots by a new owner with no problems at all. Bearing in mind that I have personally observed (and filmed) my neighbour using the gun, I can confirm he's using the right cartridges, I can confirm he's holding it properly, and I can confirm he's having problems at the rate of between three and five misfeeds every fifty shots, please can I ask for thought from forum members. Is a misfeed rate of the quoted "two in seventy five shots" acceptable? Personally I would reckon that none at all is the right answer. Given that it's a gas operated semi-auto surely the manner in which you hold it shouldn't matter at all? Is it acceptable to show video purporting to be a faulty gun performing flawlessly to the owner's mates? Surely the importer should at least be looking at an item returned under warranty? What do forum members think should be the right outcome? My mate has been shooting for decades, knows what he's doing, this isn't the first semi-auto he's owned, and he is getting mighty p***ed off with it all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 The importer has a valid point, AFAIK the Armsan is a short recoil type action like benellis and a few others, i run Benellis all the time well Breda Grizzly now but same gun, you can get cycling issues if you dont shoulder the gun quite right overhead shots can be a issue sometimes. Gas guns work off gasopperating the mechanisum, ineretia guns use just that and can be hold sensitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesP Posted June 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 Tony it is a gas operated gun, not recoil. I'm aware that recoil operated ones require a shoulder to push against. But gas operated ones - like the one in question - don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkfanz Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 (edited) ive had an a620 for bout 2 years,use it a lot and it doesn,t miss feed any more often than my beretta outlander,probablyly one in hundreds of rounds,mind you i have used a few hundred 30gram shells in it but my normal load is 28gram.a mate borrowed it and used up a bag of mixed 25/28/30gram loads in any order they came out the bag without any issues. Edited June 11, 2016 by hawkfanz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlerob Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 Yep I was in a gun shop.and asked if the armsan was gas operating or inerta recoil operated to his reply I don't know I said will find out take of the forend and there it was gas operating with a sprint to assist same as hatsan and a few other guns. Berreta don't use the spring on there gas auto's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlerob Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 And to say about the failure to feed problems I had the same rate put my urika was down to slight bent cartridge lifter found out after selling it And to say about the failure to feed problems I had the same rate put my urika was down to slight bent cartridge lifter found out after selling it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsbob Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 (edited) Yep I was in a gun shop.and asked if the armsan was gas operating or inerta recoil operated to his reply I don't know I said will find out take of the forend and there it was gas operating with a sprint to assist same as hatsan and a few other guns. Berreta don't use the spring on there gas auto's Yes they do but it is in a different place, well at least they did on the one I owned. Edited June 11, 2016 by sportsbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 Tony it is a gas operated gun, not recoil. I'm aware that recoil operated ones require a shoulder to push against. But gas operated ones - like the one in question - don't. Sorry i thhought the armsans were a short recoil semi, there is a turkish semi besides the stogers that are inertia not sure of the name now though my mistake. Any gas semi is not fussy about hold so that part of the importers response is BS . Some semi autos need a little running in to be flawless, Baikal MP153s Benelli SBEs and some others say in the handbooks to use a few heavy loads in them to run them in. The Armsan could be like this read the handbook. This advice in some handbooks is just to wear in any burrs or rough edges on mass produced guns, If you strip and clean the gun fully, Clean all lube off it and simply work the bolt and mech back and forth repeating it for a good half hour or so you can feel how they slick up all by themselves. This worked for me on the Baikal i had to strip and clean that gun from new because they come new with a thick sticky grease applied at the factory for shelf and storage protection. Is the locking bolt or lug if its a rotary bolt free and smoth in function? Is the mag folower and spring smoth and free, is it noisey in use when you feed ammo in the mag, the spring needs a light lube if it is possiblke to hear the spring in the mag tube this can slow feeding some times, try a little and i meen a little lube here. Is the ejector claw spring and plunger free and smooth not notchy and rough, a few burrs in here could make for unreliable extraction in that part of the cycle. I am probably preaching to the converted here with the above advice, you and the owner sound like you know your way around a gun or two anyway, but bassed on what you say the first gun seems to be functioning fine, so i just felt it might be a new gun issue rather than a problem as such. If you look at all the above its got to have a fault and it needs fixing or a refund, the latter might be a good option if it persists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesP Posted June 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 I really think the thing is "run in" by now. And properly cleaned. And properly lubricated. The question really is what should the shop be expected to do at this stage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 (edited) Fair enough if its free enough. As for the shop well your mate bought a new gun it needs to work, if its not you need one that works or a refund take the latter two jams in what was it 70 0odd shots is not reliable they are notr holding up their side of the deal you want it sorting out one way or the other. Me id want my the money there are cheaper guns in 20 that work without jams that armsan needs to. The importers are a good firm if its who i think it is suprised you have not had it sorted. Edited June 11, 2016 by TONY R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesP Posted June 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 It's surprising me too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 Ring em Monday, i think he needs the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow white Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 I have a armsan 20 semi the only problem i accidentle knocked the and out of mag tube phoned them direct and they sent me one with out going through dealer i always go straight to the inporter because the some of the dealers want to know.if you phone Highland importes up direct you will get first hand info about what to do.mine as had about 1000 home loads through it last year alone with out a miss or ejector problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesP Posted June 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 It's hard work, this business of getting guns fixed. We both popped down to the shop this morning to see what's what. The gun is still there, and all that's happened is that (at my mate's request) a photo has been sent to the importer of a burr/worn patch on one component, and a reply has been received to the effect that it's quite normal but he can have a new bit if he likes. The issue here is that the chaps in the gun shop reckon to have fired loads of cartridges through it - 75 of various types and loads - with only two failures that we're told occurred with light loads. Which puts us in the weird position of my mate having a failure rate of between 3 and five misfeeds/mischamberings out of his fifty shots every time we go out, in front of the bunch of us that shoot with him, that's around four or five of us each week., We're all acutely aware of his gun failing to function, we all witness it, we all know the score, we've all seen him actually rechambering a cartridge while a teal is in the air, and we've all decided we'll never own an Armsan. But the people on the other side of the shop counter are demanding evidence. Which implies that for some reason we're fibbing about it. That's what it feels like anyway. The chap who runs the shop says his hands are tied, he can't do anything without the importer's say-so. He also reckons that all they would do anyway is take it out and shoot it and nothing would go wrong. I really would expect them to examine it, strip it, measure it, look for the things that can go wrong - like the burring that can occur around the extractor claw slot. So it's our word (all of us) against theirs. After an exchange of views the gun is being sent back today, an we've asked that the normal quoted fifteen day delay before a gun is examined (says the gun shop owner) be reduced to immediatedly. We're ten days into this and we're at the "there's nothing wrong with it" stage... But at least it's going back to the importer. Which should have happened a while ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalahari Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 Well there is always trading standards. David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesP Posted June 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 Yes, David, that's true. But really it shouldn't need that sort of thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I think like many modern auto's t is a hybrid of gas and recoil . One problem I did come across with Armsan,s was that the carrier twisted so did not function properly . I use to do warrentee work on them when Viking imported them and replaced the trigger unit complete on quite a few of these .Had similar problems with other Turkish made autos as well as some older Fabarm,s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesP Posted September 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 It's been a while since I updated this thread, so here goes. To cut a long story short the gun went off to the importers, who reckon they can't make it go wrong, they say. They say that the first gun was exchanged as a gesture of good will, but they can't fix what they don't think is busted. When the gun was returned my chum said it felt a bit different, and we took it off to Southern Counties, where he put 65 cartridges through it without a problem. In the ensuing weeks it began to misbehave once more. The thing doesn't feed properly, and last Saturday this culminated in a visit to Pilford where a 40 bird shoot produced five misfeeds. Of course, the first cartridge is always manually chambered, so that represents a failure rate of 25%. Cartridges of the correct load and length were used, Eley this time. We're off into town to talk to the chap again in a bit, here's hoping he won't run out of the back door when he sees us coming... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodeer Posted September 13, 2016 Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 Just p/x and get something decent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted September 13, 2016 Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 (edited) This second gun the one he has now, How many rounds as it acctualy fired and what ammunition is he using exactly? If several types what have been used please list them all. Edited September 13, 2016 by TONY R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesP Posted September 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 Over the last months it's been 50 every Tuesday most weeks. For the life of me I can't list what cartridges he's used, he has tried various types in an attempt to find one that works; the shop did cast a bit of doubt on suitability of cartridge, same as they did on the way he holds it, and the way he cleans it, and whether or not he is "anticipating" a shot. I do know he has used Armusa, Eley, and RC among others. And I do know that he is careful to use the right length and the right load. So in answer to your "Please list them all" I can't. I very much doubt at this stage that many people could list all the cartridges used by their next door neighbour over a period of time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted September 13, 2016 Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 OK i was just thinking if there were any notorious rounds in the mix of things that throw up unreliable cycling of autos , The gun sounds like it has fired enough rounds to be BEDED IN as such. I think you need to go get a refund , i have a feeling by the things you say they have not played a totaly straight bat with you all the way along, i mean DID they send it to the suplier or not, its as simple as that. They certainly were not prompt about it if they did. It apparently has no faults yet its hanging up, there is something amiss with it, and replacement brought about similar faults. Ok it might sound far fetched but it is feasable your mate got two glitchey guns, it could happen dispite the odds being against it. Regardless its not like your mate has not given these things a fair crack of the whip is it, he had one and still got a replacement, he has issues cstill this needs sorting out i think a refund is the only practical option for all parties here. Im concerned about the time scale of events here thats a issue i an not sure of in legal terms as is regarding the legal obligations . This is something i know nothing of, but i feel moraly at least you have the high ground, and decent people shoul;d want to put things right for your friend. I would like to think the gunshop feel the same way, i would return it and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkfanz Posted September 13, 2016 Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 just as a matter of interest on the question of cartridge fussy guns,my mate gave me 2 boxes of hull high pheasant 20g carts 28g no6 because they wont cycle in his remmington 1100 20g,just goes to show its not always turkish guns that misbehave,,my armsan 20g is brilliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted September 13, 2016 Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 i had a hatsan years ago, and it would throw out any thing never let me down,my next gun is a remmy 1100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted September 14, 2016 Report Share Posted September 14, 2016 And, also for balance, my A612 has performed perfectly since the day I bought it. Albeit a 12 gauge. Perhaps this particular A620 is a lemon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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