neutron619 Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) Problem is they are over choked and blow the pattern as I have one as well, going to get mine opened up when I have time to run to gunsmith. Roll on Sunday morning when I can get out to see if the same is true of the Yildiz. I'm crossing my fingers that dropping ½ and ¾ in there (rather than ¾ and full) will show an improvement in performance with the Eley cartridges. Will still try to get hold of some Fiocchis and other brands though. Thanks to all who have contributed their thoughts / experience - much appreciated. PS - Does anyone have numbers for the average pellet counts in the Fiocchi #7½ or #8 (by which I mean English #7 / #7½) cartridges? I've come up with 218 for the former and 257 for the latter, but the number you can get in the case doesn't always match the theory... Edited January 5, 2017 by neutron619 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Oi Neutron, why not reverse the process and put the most open choke in to the gun. Fire at your patten plate from 15 metres and see what the pattern iss like. Then go back to 20 metres and then 25. No need to fire many shots at each distance as you will soon work out what the optimum distance will be. Then do the same for each of the 5 choke constrictions to gain a working knowledge of just what the factory supplied chokes are capable off. Then you could progress to buying an aftermarket choke in order to get the most from the little gun/little cartridge set up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Oi Neutron, why not reverse the process and put the most open choke in to the gun. Fire at your patten plate from 15 metres and see what the pattern iss like. Then go back to 20 metres and then 25. No need to fire many shots at each distance as you will soon work out what the optimum distance will be. Then do the same for each of the 5 choke constrictions to gain a working knowledge of just what the factory supplied chokes are capable off. Then you could progress to buying an aftermarket choke in order to get the most from the little gun/little cartridge set up! Sounds to me like a trip to Sporting Targets is in order... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 What is this "Sporting Targets" you speak of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Isn't that the name of the place in Bedford where there's a big 8' pattern plate, or am I mistaken? I get confused between the local clay grounds as I so rarely get the chance to visit any of them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW95J Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) Express does some good .410 cartridges, I think they only come in fibre which is what got me onto them. The box I have at the moment is 'Supreme Game' 14g 7. Also used Gamebore Target (14g 9 PW) and Gamebore Hunting (I think an 11g 6 PW). Can't say anything about the patterning but from memory both the Gamebore loads seemed to lack in terms of power. Not had a problem with Express. I think all three mentioned here come in 3" Edited January 5, 2017 by HW95J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 The best .410 load I have used was UEE 684 primer siarm AZ wad ( full length ) 16 grams of shot and 14.5 grains of WW296 6 star crimp in a fiocchi case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Roll on Sunday morning when I can get out to see if the same is true of the Yildiz. I'm crossing my fingers that dropping ½ and ¾ in there (rather than ¾ and full) will show an improvement in performance with the Eley cartridges. Will still try to get hold of some Fiocchis and other brands though. Thanks to all who have contributed their thoughts / experience - much appreciated. PS - Does anyone have numbers for the average pellet counts in the Fiocchi #7½ or #8 (by which I mean English #7 / #7½) cartridges? I've come up with 218 for the former and 257 for the latter, but the number you can get in the case doesn't always match the theory... i have patterned Fiocchi in the past but in No 6it (5.5 english), gave me the following pattern percentages at 35 yards: - Briley IC (0.401) 37% Briley LM (0.398) 46% Briley M (0.395) 58% Briley IM (0.392) 64% I suspect a Light Full (0.389) may squeeze 65% out of it but that is likely to be max in my gun and compares to a maximum of 58% (0.398) with Eley No 7 fibre and 70% (0.398) for Eley Subsonic No6 fibre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 If my youngest son comes pigeon shooting in February, I will give him 18 gm fiocchi 9s to use in the .410. They smash clays on the skeet very well. I would have no qualms about using them on 30 yard birds. I think they have full length plastic wads. I will have to check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
222mark Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I'll rephrase that.You only have a pattern about eight inch's wide out to 20 yards. What good is that. The .410 was never intended as a long range gun. It works at its best with open chokes below 30 yards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I'll rephrase that.You only have a pattern about eight inch's wide out to 20 yards. What good is that. The .410 was never intended as a long range gun. It works at its best with open chokes below 30 yards I doubt it would give 8" wide patterns at 20 yards, but I would be very happy if it did. I will try to get some patterning done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) I'll rephrase that.You only have a pattern about eight inch's wide out to 20 yards. What good is that. The .410 was never intended as a long range gun. It works at its best with open chokes below 30 yards Going on the below (and excluding fliers) corresponds with what is expected, - 9 inch at 10 yards, 12 inch at 15 yards, 16 inch at 20 yards and 21 inches at 25 yards at full choke, other chokes should be wider. Mossberg Pattern (25 yards, Full Choke Eley No 7 Magnum) - Inner circle is 20 inch Edited January 5, 2017 by Stonepark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 Fiocchi Plastic wads are 46mm long and just short of the crimp. Photo below shows wad in situ, brass, dark powder, wad with shot etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted January 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) Fiocchi Plastic wads are 46mm long and just short of the crimp. Photo below shows wad in situ, brass, dark powder, wad with shot etc @Stonepark: Many thanks for this. I was able to obtain a box of these yesterday but still haven't had a chance to cut any open, so this is useful to see. I did manage to fire a couple at two somewhat under-sized pieces of cardboard when I was out earlier, however. They weren't big enough to put the 30" circle on it and get a proper pellet count, let alone an average over several shots, but put it this way - I'm reserving judgement. It may be that, in the same way certain rimfire rifles are only accurate with one brand of ammunition that my gun simply doesn't like Fiocchi ammunition, but I was only getting pellet counts of - I'd estimate - around 50-70 at 40 yards with those cartridges. Lovely smooth recoil though. Still - when I compare it to this pattern, shot this morning: which is the Eley Trap 19g/#7½ cartridge through the ¾ choke of my Yildiz at 40 yards, I'm a little disappointed. Certainly, the Fiocchi is a #7 rather than a #7½, but the counts are way down, whereas the Eley pattern is basically usable. Ok, that particular pattern (which was the best with 133 of around 270 in the circle) shows that annoying hole to the left of centre, but the others were more even, although they had slightly fewer in the circle (down to 126). At 30 yards I'm still up in the 170's/180's with the Eleys and the jackdaw I brought down at around 30 yards didn't have anything to say about them. Don't get me wrong - I'm still going to test everything even vaguely useful that I can lay my hands on, but the Eleys have set a high standard today, perhaps unlike their reputation. I'm still not entirely comfortable with clay loads on birds, but there's no room to be prudish where .410 patterning is concerned and again, the jackdaw didn't complain... Edited January 8, 2017 by neutron619 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 The mistake I have found is to just pattern one cartridge. I have patterned three or four out of the same box and they all differ. I have come to the conclusion that patterning is a problem difficult to solve with the 410 and the only answer is to shoot 7s or 7 1/2s to get a good coverage and pellet count. I have been shooting the new 18gr designated loads by Fiocchi recently and have become more than happy through my full choked Yilditz 30 inch barrels. The Lylevale #5 fibre wadded shells just do not make the grade. The pattern plate has shown mixed results with coverage and I have hit birds hard in the pattern for them to struggle on before collapsing. Do the same with the 18gr Fiocchi's and they just fold. I am looking to try the Hull 410s, as they promise more speed. Only a few weeks to pigeon roost shooting and that is a good test of a cartridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 Neutron619, Do you have a vernier caliper to measure your chokes ID at the muzzle? Might be worth while as I found the OEM chokes that came with my gun were almost based on 12b chokes (i.e. 5 and 10 thou increments) As with my tests, you have to find what your cartridge likes chokewise, and judge by evenness of the pattern and repeat-ability. 35 yards with a clay load of 7.5 is no different from 7's at 40, 6's at 50 or 5's at 60 which no one would blink at and if you are getting good patterns with the Eley Trap at 35 yards, go with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted January 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Neutron619, Do you have a vernier caliper to measure your chokes ID at the muzzle? Might be worth while as I found the OEM chokes that came with my gun were almost based on 12b chokes (i.e. 5 and 10 thou increments) As with my tests, you have to find what your cartridge likes chokewise, and judge by evenness of the pattern and repeat-ability. 35 yards with a clay load of 7.5 is no different from 7's at 40, 6's at 50 or 5's at 60 which no one would blink at and if you are getting good patterns with the Eley Trap at 35 yards, go with it. I do and I measured the constrictions when the gun arrived. The Yildiz is supplied with chokes in 0.005" increments, starting with "cylinder" or 5-notches, which is actually 0.005" constriction, then 0.010" (4 notches), 0.015" (3 notches), 0.020" (2 notches or what I've referred to as "¾" choke above) and 0.025" (1 notch). I've been used to a "full" choke being about 0.018" constriction in a .410, depending on manufacturer, so it doesn't surprise me that performance seems to suffer with the 0.025" choke - that's a lot of squeeze on such a small tube (= 0.044" in a 12 gauge). The fact that the 3-notch and 2-notch chokes have behaved so similarly (so far) suggests that they sit either side of a "sweet spot", where the constriction is as tight as it can be without becoming detrimental to pattern. Coincidentally, I'd guess that the sweet spot would be at about 0.018" constriction! Those chaps at Briley, from whom I got that number originally, may be on to something... It appears that what I'm seeing with the former choke is "slightly less than full" and the latter is "slightly over-full". I hasten to add that by that, I don't mean "full choke performance" (i.e. 70% in the circle) but rather "full" meaning the tightest possible pattern with this gun and these cartridges. On the standard labels, I'm barely managing "skeet" performance, but it's good enough and answers the question I'm asking of the gun, which is "35-40 yard maximum range". I don't have any means of cutting (or the money to have cut) a pair of 0.018" chokes, but if they're ever made available (i.e. Briley) I'll remember this thread and obtain some. Could be interesting to see whether my hunch is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 I am pretty sure yildiz use mobile choke and briley already do these. If you want to check, if you pm me address, i can let you borrow my IM (0.18) extended one by post to see if it fits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 That's a cracking offer! Look forward to the reults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted January 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 That's a cracking offer! Look forward to the reults. Indeed it is and one for which I'm very grateful. You'll receive a PM shortly, but let me say thank you publicly - much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) From the Briley site; http://www.briley.com/p-54272-mobil-choke-extended-choke-410-bore.aspx Choke constrictions from Cylinder to Extra Full, in .005 inches (.127mm) increments let you precisely match your load to the shooting conditions. Long tube extends beyond the length of the muzzle, features highly polished interior for less pellet deformation; reduced fliers and tighter patterns. Knurled grasping band speeds installation and removal. Choke constriction is marked on band so there is no need to remove choke to verify size. When you look at the list of 11 constrictions offered on their .410" page, they don't go up in 5 thou constrictions but 2 thou or 3 thou. Hopefully being able to try the one that Stonepark offered may give some evidence of what may be possible with a little gun. Edited January 9, 2017 by TIGHTCHOKE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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