JONO Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Dear all, I know little about actual pigeon numbers and their distribution across the British Isles. I also know little about the breeding rate and growth statistics of the humble woodpigeon. What concerns me, or at least raises the question in my head about sustainability is that I see a fair number of posts in which claims of between 100 and 500 kills are common place. Not a couple of months ago there was concern about "where have they gone" and "where are the flocks" etc etc and it got me thinking. Given the relative number of shooters here relative to the numbers in the UK one can extrapolate and presume, reasonably safely, that there are thousands, if not 10s of thousands of birds being killed/culled at any one point in time. Its spring - a busy time for shooters and breeding season for pigeons. There'll be squabs in the nests and I was wondering if anyone knew what impact the loss of one parent bird has on survivability rates, let alone the loss of two parents. Or are the numbers killed merely a "drop in the ocean"? My point is one of hoping that there are people conscious of the need to have a balance between "pest control" and the continuation of the sporting element to future generations. Has any research been done or is there a general consensus on what is a sustainable pigeon population and whether the species can withstand the intensive hunting pressure 12 months of the year? I'm not sure there is a debate here at all - as I've said, I'm largely ignorant of the facts and thought to ask those more "in the know". Best regards Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyni Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I'll let other's speak for themselves but we have all but stopped pigeon shooting now unless a farmer asks us to shoot them for crop protection. Crows, Magpies etc will get it the most but except for the odd trip the pigeons will be left alone for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimfire Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Jono, Interesting theory. Last year one of the leading magazines ran an article on wood pigeons and whether there should be a closed season or not, I think it was the Shooting Times, and it raised a considerable number of letters and comments in favour of both. I agree, there does seem to be less pigeons around but that could be that they are all somewhere else ie never where I am!! It would be interesting to see what others have to say on the issue and maybe have a poll to see what people think about a closed season, I guess I know what the outcome would be, personally I wouldn't be in favour of a closed season. Food for thought Regards Rimfire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterswind9465 Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I am a full time guide in the Fife and Aberdeen areas of Scotland. I will only sell Pigeon shooting during Feb, March and first 2 weeks of April then the last week of July, August and 2 weeks in September. I have to look after the breeding Pigeons if I am to provide good sport for clients. In our shooting areas there are always plenty of birds around and I beleve this is due to leaving them in piece during the first half of nesting period. Remember you can only kill them once !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Jono... A serious question indeed and one very close to my heart... Read my Forum Topic posted on the 6th Jan under Talk from the Field. I am not really sure if anybody knows the extent of the Wood pigeon population in GB. Particularly as in severe winters the population was always supplimented by large numbers migrating from Scandinavia & Europe. ( No longer as many due to undoubtable climate changes) One school of thought is that the Autumn & Winter cull generally helps keep the breeding numbers up. This is due to the reduced feed available in winter limiting the breeding population. Now that extensive winter rape is grown this might not be true as it was say 15 years ago. That said I have always been in favour of a close season to allow the birds to reproduce and do not shoot pigeon during the spring and summer months. My guns are packed away between end of March and 1st August.. I dont consider it to be particularly sporting to kill a bird during its breeding cycle, Crop protection or not.. And the majority of Farmers on whos land I shoot agree with me that the greatest damage by pigeon is to Autumn sown rape or Spring drillings. On the subject of Breeding, Both parents feed the squabs and they rely on a special crop milk produced by the parent birds. I am sure that many squabs perish due to the demand imposed by a single parent after loosing a mate, and I have often found abandoned nests in shot areas with dead squabs in them. I am of the opinion that both parents are required to raise the squabs and shooting one parent will lead to the squabs demise and also the potential loss of further broods. I infact wrote to the Sporting Gun magazine about a year ago on the subject of this topic with a letter containing these points and they chose not to print it. I would be in favour of a close season and I am sure in my mind that one day, perhaps not for many years, this will come. After all this Bird is killed under the guise of Pest Control and not as a commercial enterprise. The fact that we can combine a recreational sporting passtime with bona fide pest control is in our favour at the moment but we must never get complacent about pigeon numbers as a bad winter like the one of 63 could annihilate numbers very quickly... FM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimfire Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 FM, Very well put, whether the general population of farmers would agree with your thoughts though is another issue. You are right about the complacency issue, nothing lasts for ever. Regards Rimfire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakepitlee Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 HI ALL HAVE A LOOK AT WOODIE WWW.RSPB.CO.UK LEE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimfire Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Jono, As an afterthought, you mention large bags of pigeons being shot, this has on occasions worried me. We all know that there are good days and bad days when shooting pigeons, however, I feel uneasy when I see pictures in magazines of shooters surrounded by hundreds/thousands of dead birds on a red letter day. Whilst we are aware of the damage that they can do to crops, I often wonder what the antis think when they see the same pictures. Are we doing the right thing by advertising this? Regards Rimfire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Visit... www.bto.org/birdtrends/wcrwoodp.htm Perhaps we /I am worying unnecessarily... But I still wont shoot a bird in its breeding season... We might as well find the nests and smash the eggs in the name of Pest Contol. FM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ROBSON Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 We are in a similar position to HW, only selling days in Feb,Mar,Apr,end of Jul,Aug and Sep. The rest or the year will only really consist of of the odd day to keep the farmers happy when their getting bother, especially cash crops like Colli's etc. The trend in our area is actually an increase in numbers with our average bags getting bigger and definately more birds around than say 5 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Whether to shoot pigeons all year round, or not, is a personal choice. Conservative estimates put the UK population around 2.5 million plus. This level can easily sustain the amount of birds killed by shooting. Bags of 100,s are not that common and I have never heard of bags of thousands. I believe there are more pigeons around now, than ever before. There is a greater Winter food supply, with the introduction of rape. The vast numbers of rape fields can spread the local pigeon population, making the numbers look fewer. The milder weather has increased the breeding period and pigeons "courting", are evident for about 9 months of the year. Another benefit of the milder weather, is that there are very few pigeon deaths due to harsh Winters, as there was in the 60s and 70s. The wood pigeon is classified as vermin, which is why there is no season. Introduce a season and you will create even more demand. Then prepare to pay dearly for your "sport". Those of us old enough, will remember when Farmers paid you to shoot pigeons, or at least, gave you free cartridges. Now, its not easy to get, as the postings on here show. You have to pay a professional Guide, or join a subscription paying Pigeon Club, or be very careful not to upset your friendly Farmer. With regard to the "trophy shots" of lots of pigeons, I,m not sure it matters greatly. The "antis", will be anti, even if you pretend you miss all the pigeons you shoot at. As I said earlier, its a matter of personal choice. If you want to have a personal "close season", have one. I tend to fish and travel through the Summer months, but I do shoot rape and cereal stubbles later on. I also don,t shoot enough pigeons to set up a "trophy shot", but I wish I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I shoot pigeons from september till the first couple of weeks in March and I let them breed because the numbers aren't huge where I live. I will continue to shoot crows and magpies all year round because the numbers are collosill where I live and I need to help the song birds and game birds have a chance against the corvids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I can only agree with the comments made by cranfield. Woodies now get a few broods away each year, if we had a closed season we would hardly have an open window when woodies were not breeding. I have seen various reports on estimated wood pigeon numbers thet vary wildly from 5 to 25 million. You dont need a degreee in quantum mathmatics to work out that the population is out of control. Dont forget that we are allowed to shoot woodies under an open general license issued by DEFRA, on the grounds that woodies do severe damage to agriculture and as such are classified as a pest. I view woodies as little more than avian rats. I f you would think twice about shooting a rat because it may have young, you would never shoot one. The country is over run with rats and woodies, the fact that woodies come and go as they please adds to the sport of pigeon shooting. Would you tell your farmer that you were not shooting pigeon because they were breeding? If you would, be prepared to loose your shooting quick sticks, the price for a consience perhaps, but your farmer has a problem that he allows you to assist in solving, sport is a byproduct in my view. As cranners says, there is always fishing and clays, but dont tell the farmer to get lost. webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimfire Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Hi Cranners, Yes thousands, well just, the chap who works around the corner from my office claims to have shot 1085 about three weeks ago in Cambridgeshire over rape. His photos show pigeons spread out as far as the eye can see. He says that he eats what he shoots, this leaves a lot to the imagination. Regards Rimfire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I view woodies as little more than avian rats. I f you would think twice about shooting a rat because it may have young, you would never shoot one. The country is over run with rats and woodies, the fact that woodies come and go as they please adds to the sport of pigeon shooting. You wouldn't eat a rat but. Good points webber but the numbers in Northern Ireland are not nearly as plentiful as in england thats why I stop shooting them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Ollie Your right, I wouldnt willingly eat rat, but my grandad regularly did. He was a prisoner of war in the first world war! webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JONO Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Webber....its a gentle debate matey. Dont forget that we are allowed to shoot woodies under an open general license issued by DEFRA, on the grounds that woodies do severe damage to agriculture and as such are classified as a pest Agreed. But doesn't this need to be reviewed depending on the populations involved? I view woodies as little more than avian rats. A little strong perhaps - I wouldn't entertain the idea of eating rat but woodies taste good as well as being a natural feature of our woodlands and farmlands. I f you would think twice about shooting a rat because it may have young, you would never shoot one. Nope - my point was that I lacked the knowledge as to how many broods were produced and whether the breeding season lasted beyond spring and what was the chance of survival of a squab with one parent absent. The country is over run with rats and woodies, the fact that woodies come and go as they please adds to the sport of pigeon shooting. Again - you yourself say that estimates of populations vary wildly - too little action too late could mean numbers falling below sustainable levels (and we're talking hypothetically here). If we don't know how many there are how can we possibly say that populations are out of control? Would you tell your farmer that you were not shooting pigeon because they were breeding? If you would, be prepared to loose your shooting quick sticks, the price for a consience perhaps, but your farmer has a problem that he allows you to assist in solving, sport is a byproduct in my view. As cranners says, there is always fishing and clays, but dont tell the farmer to get lost. Noone is telling the farmer to get lost. This is about a concerted, conscious effort to ensure that if pigeons are in plague proportions they are controlled. Similarly if there is likely to be a crash in the population then the bird needs protecting - hence the emphasis on sustainable levels so that farmers are happy, shooters are happy and pigeons remain a part of our landscape. The word here is balance Any view other than the one above would be pretty mindless and without consideration of the future. Above all I've said "I don't know" and said "are such large bags sustainable - especially in the breeding season" of which I admitted to not knowing a huge amount about. Hope that clarifies things - it wasn't an "anti" post or even a "close season" post but one asking questions of sustainability. Rgds Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyni Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Can't compare rats to anything else on this earth. Rats ********* ********* ****** b'stardin things put me out of my last house and I had to move noisey scratchin fislin smelly as **** (when dead in the house after poison) ********* I could shoot rats and their nests all day long without a second thought. Had to throw out all my flytyin gear as they had ****** and **** all over it, ****** dirty ********* shoot the lot of them. mmmmm calmer now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Rimfire, if someone told me that he had shot 1085 pigeons in a day and ate all he shot, I would call him a liar. Because, one or both, of those statements are fantasy. Perhaps eating too many pigeons, affects your ability to count. jonnyni, you don,t like rats then ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I would equate feral pigeons with avian rats, but not woodies. If the BTO link posted earlier is to believed then I think we may be worrying about a problem which doesn't exist. I agree we shouldn't get complacent though, but if the twitchers are saying they are increasing then they must be doing pretty well!! A couple of years back I remmeber SG said there could be 18 million pigeons (or possibly even pairs? I can't remmber) thats a lot of pigeon!! Interestingly according to the BTO the pop in England is stable, in Scotland decreasing and in Northern Ireland a whacking +50% increase! (over the past 6 yearS) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I think many of us are getting too wrapped up in this " Shoot in the name of pest control " buisiness.. Lets be honest with ourselves many of us shoot Pigeon because we enjoy it and as a bi product of our sport it keeps the numbers under control.. Who amongst us ( Probably none ) thinks to himselve as a pigeon approaches the gun and the adrenelin rush starts.... Here comes another agricultural pest and I must dispatch it to protect the farmers crops...? The point I was trying to make earlier is that many of us would still shoot pigeon in the name of pest control all year round even if the numbers where in serious decline and not give a toss about the circumstances... My conscience as a sportsman will not allow me to do this and I know as well as anybody farming the damage and devaluation that these birds cause to crops but at the same time we must have some respect for our quarry which is providing us with such great sport.. FM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Fair enough FM, but all the literature I have read so far has (and the most recent is up to 2002) pointed to an increase in their populations. Like yourself I personally don't feel great shooting pigeons knowing there may be squabs on the nest, I'd only go out if the pigeons were really hammering a farmers field during the summer, and of course when they are really hammering a field is exactly the time when the summer's big bags are usually had. I think a pigeon has to make a living, but don't forget so does a farmer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Jonno It looks as though I may have touched a raw nereve, which wasnt my intention. You have been brave enough to admit that your knowledge is limited; hopefully having digested the various comments made on the forum you are now better informed. The simple maths are that the number of pigeon shot only assists in the control of pigeon as they breed at a greater rate than they are shot, despite some alleged masssive bags. I doubt that I would be able to stand having shot 1000 + cartridges, even with a semi, and even if there was sufficient time, and thats a debatable point in itself. Some years ago I purchased a report from BASC, the title now escapes me, but it was the official government report on woodpigeon as an agricultural pest. Thye report stated that the pigeon population was increasing despite all efforts and aknowkedged that shooting was the only feasable, humane method available to control the woodpigeon. DEFRA do address the matter of the license. I think that it is on a 2 yearly basis, but I may be wrong. To pull, or not to pull the trigger is always your decision. I dont think twice about shooting a magpie or crow etc, similarly a pigeon. However any shooter worth his salt and BASC membership would cease shooting any species that was seen to be in decline, regardless of any pending imposed ban. I am lucky in having a few coveys of grey partridge on two of my rough shoots, barrells have never been raised at them for the past 6 years, yet we do all that we can to protect their environment, that obviously includes pest control. Pigeon are a pest, shoot them if you wish, dont if you dont. webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyni Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Dont pay too much heed to those figures N.Ireland hasn't seen a 50% increase over the last 6yrs no way (IMO). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 jonnyni Want to join my new club, love Berettas; hate rats. You could be member no 2. One of the farmers on whos land I shoot also eventually moved out of his house because of rats. webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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