Palestine

[Dekers]

My Father served in Palestine/Israel immediately after the War and was in the middle of considerable grief there.

My longer term history knowledge is not great and I am not coming down on any side, but I can see why the Palestinians are a bit miffed!

[Vince Green]

5 hours ago, Dekers said:

My Father served in Palestine/Israel immediately after the War and was in the middle of considerable grief there.

My longer term history knowledge is not great and I am not coming down on any side, but I can see why the Palestinians are a bit miffed!

I agree, I don't see how the UN thought in 1947 that they had the right to just give away somebody else's country and it wasn't going to end in conflict. The plan was rejected by the Arab leaders at the time but the UN (well, it was USA actually) pushed it through despite the objections and it was a shooting war by 1948 and basically has been ever since

Edited May 21, 2018 by Vince Green

[Scully]

My Dad and his brother also served in Palestine during the late ‘40’s.

I recall the fighting there was often a feature of the news when I was growing up; I didn’t ( and still don’t ) have any real interest in why they were always fighting but remember my Dad saying the Israelis will always fight, and fight dirty if they have to to protect what land they have to live on as a nation as they have nowhere else to go. 

[ordnance]

11 hours ago, Dekers said:

My Father served in Palestine/Israel immediately after the War and was in the middle of considerable grief there.

My longer term history knowledge is not great and I am not coming down on any side, but I can see why the Palestinians are a bit miffed!

The Israelis were no friends of the British at that time kidnapping and murdering British soldiers. , they waged a terrorist campaign to get the British out. The same British army that helped liberate them from the concentration camps.

Quote

The Irgun Zvai Leumi today issued an announcement to the press stating that the two British soldiers who were being held as hostages by the Jewish underground organization have been hanged.

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by ordnance

[Vince Green]

In 1947 the Jewish settlers were a terrorist underground army in British controlled Palestine. They killed British soldiers, they blew up hotels, they smuggled and they extorted protection money. In 1947 the UN (well it was the USA really) suddenly, and without any checks or balances gave Israel the go ahead but they handed power to the very same terrorists, gangsters and racketeers..

It was like making New York independent but putting the Mafia in charge.

The Israeli mafia went mad, driving Palestinians off their land at gunpoint, bulldozing their homes, and seizing the land for themselves, many Palestinians died when they refused to leave.

The people who were driven off their farms are now the inhabitants of Gaza, small wonder they bear a grudge.

Today most of the prime land in Israel is still under the control of what I would call the criminal families and they dictate the rules

It was handled so badly it stinks but all of the troubles in the middle east, one way or another leads us back to 1947

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Vince Green

[Rewulf]

12 hours ago, Vince Green said:

 

Today most of the prime land in Israel is still under the control of what I would call the criminal families and they dictate the rules

It was handled so badly it stinks but all of the troubles in the middle east, one way or another leads us back to 1947

 

The UN mandate back then never 'gave' control of Jerusalem to Israel, not that it was theirs to give anyway.
But the real bone of contention here is the recent moves to validate Israels 'ownership' of the holy city.
This is from a piece in 2014.

 

 

 

 

On Nov. 29, 1947, the U.N. adopted a proposal establishing Jerusalem, as marked by the red line, as "a corpus separatum under a special international regime." But the war of 1948 left the city divided between Israeli (blue) and Jordanian (beige) control.  PASSIA

The status of Jerusalem remains one of the most vexed – and volatile – sticking points in efforts to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. After occupying the eastern part of the city in the war of June 1967, Israel annexed the territory, and its political leaders proclaimed the city Israel's "eternal, undivided capital." But the international community, including the United States, continues to regard East Jerusalem as occupied territory, and to reject Israel’s decision to settle its citizens there. Nor is Israel's claim that Jerusalem is its capital city widely recognized. Most foreign nations, including the U.S., continue to maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv. 

Before the creation of the State of Israel, the newly formed United Nations had, in 1947, voted on a partition plan to divide what was then British-Mandate Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. Although that partition map put Jerusalem within the boundaries of the envisaged Palestinian Arab state, it designated Jerusalem and Bethlehem as corpus separatum, under international rule. The special status was decided on the basis of Jerusalem’s religious importance to all three Abrahamic faiths, as home to Al-Aqsa Mosque, Church of Holy Sepulchre, and the Western Wall of the Jewish temple built by Herod. There were also 100,000 Jews living in Jerusalem at the time, and the partition map envisaged an equivalent Arab population in the combined Jerusalem-Bethlehem entity. 

Edit, the full link for clarity
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/10/30/jerusalem-statusinternationalregime.html

Edited May 22, 2018 by Rewulf

[pinfireman]

On 15/05/2018 at 22:09, scouser said:

Just watched al jazera news, I admit it’s Arab owened, when you look into it the west has got a lot to answer for,snipers against civilians,no wonder they hate us.

You are right.............it is Arab owned. Says it all.................

18 hours ago, Vince Green said:

In 1947 the Jewish settlers were a terrorist underground army in British controlled Palestine. They killed British soldiers, they blew up hotels, they smuggled and they extorted protection money. In 1947 the UN (well it was the USA really) suddenly, and without any checks or balances gave Israel the go ahead but they handed power to the very same terrorists, gangsters and racketeers..

It was like making New York independent but putting the Mafia in charge.

The Israeli mafia went mad, driving Palestinians off their land at gunpoint, bulldozing their homes, and seizing the land for themselves, many Palestinians died when they refused to leave.

The people who were driven off their farms are now the inhabitants of Gaza, small wonder they bear a grudge.

Today most of the prime land in Israel is still under the control of what I would call the criminal families and they dictate the rules

It was handled so badly it stinks but all of the troubles in the middle east, one way or another leads us back to 1947

 

Actually, they lead us to around  A.D. 150.........

[Rewulf]

16 hours ago, pinfireman said:

 

Actually, they lead us to around  A.D. 150.........

Why, what happened then ?

[pinfireman]

10 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Why, what happened then ?

The Roman diaspora of the Jews, from Israel.

[Vince Green]

On ‎22‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 16:14, pinfireman said:

You are right.............it is Arab owned. Says it all.................

Actually, they lead us to around  A.D. 150.........

I think it was about 136 AD, but rising up against Rome was the equivalent of walking into a tiger's cage and kicking it very hard in the goolies. You know it can only end one way and that is extremely badly.  After 70AD you would have thought they would had an inkling of what might happen.

Its largely a myth that the Jews were driven out, for the most part they fled of their own accord and they travelled up the old Phoneacian trade routes into what is now Eastern Europe where they were able to settle.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Vince Green

[Gordon R]

History for some begins in that time - history for others starts in 1947. I suspect the dispute will run for another 2000 years without resolution.

[Vince Green]

12 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

History for some begins in that time - history for others starts in 1947. I suspect the dispute will run for another 2000 years without resolution.

Yes Gordon but the trouble is that some, mainly on the  Israeli side are trying to re-write the history. If your ancestors rose up against Roman rule, had their backsides kicked from pillar to post and legged it. Does that give you any sort of right to return to that land nearly two thousand later and re-claim it from the people who have been living there peacefully ever since?

 

[pinfireman]

4 hours ago, Vince Green said:

I think it was about 136 AD, but rising up against Rome was the equivalent of walking into a tiger's cage and kicking it very hard in the goolies. You know it can only end one way and that is extremely badly.  After 70AD you would have thought they would had an inkling of what might happen.

Its largely a myth that the Jews were driven out, for the most part they fled of their own accord and they travelled up the old Phoneacian trade routes into what is now Eastern Europe where they were able to settle.

Again, only partly accurate.....the tiger was in their cage! They had a right to kick it where it hurts! Plus, the Roman diaspora was the final one, There had been a constant attacking and dispersion of the Jews for 3 centuries prior to that............As for the remark that it,s a myth they were driven out....and "fleeing of their own accord", wouldn,t you "flee" when, having lost the battle, you were persecuted by the occupying, heavily armed force,  who were intent on crushing any further insurrection? I think we call them refugees today.  Strange how you  tend to brush aside what happened to the Jews then, but side with the Palestinian cause now?

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Yes Gordon but the trouble is that some, mainly on the  Israeli side are trying to re-write the history. If your ancestors rose up against Roman rule, had their backsides kicked from pillar to post and legged it. Does that give you any sort of right to return to that land nearly two thousand later and re-claim it from the people who have been living there peacefully ever since?

 

Yes, it does! It,s still your homeland! As for peacefully living there for 2,000 years, that is not strictly correct, is it? Check your history books..........(preferably one not written by David Irving).

[Rewulf]

8 hours ago, pinfireman said:

Again, only partly accurate.....the tiger was in their cage! They had a right to kick it where it hurts! Plus, the Roman diaspora was the final one, There had been a constant attacking and dispersion of the Jews for 3 centuries prior to that............As for the remark that it,s a myth they were driven out....and "fleeing of their own accord", wouldn,t you "flee" when, having lost the battle, you were persecuted by the occupying, heavily armed force,  who were intent on crushing any further insurrection? I think we call them refugees today.  Strange how you  tend to brush aside what happened to the Jews then, but side with the Palestinian cause now?

Yes, it does! It,s still your homeland! As for peacefully living there for 2,000 years, that is not strictly correct, is it? Check your history books..........(preferably one not written by David Irving).

The Hebrew people have been persecuted by various tribes and kingdoms since before they were called Hebrews.

They also did a fair amount of persecuting themselves back in the days of Moses and Joshua.

The simple fact of the matter is , that was the way of the world back in those days, people were enslaved, exterminated and conquered on a very regular basis.
The Jews even exterminated some of their own people on more than one occasion, ethnic and religious 'cleansing' is nothing new'

The people of this country have been invaded, murdered and enslaved by foreign powers on numerous occasions.

If you want to be accurate about Jewish persecution, it has been a long hard road for them, and diasporas have happened to various European enclaves for the last 2000 years. Why ?
Also you have to ask the Ashkenasi question, if your line never set foot in the holy land, what rights do you have to it ?
Is it a right of the Jews, to lay claim to a land, because at one time 2000 years ago,your religion had its capital there ?
Do I have rights to a German or a French passport, and claims to lands there because of my Norman and Saxon heritage ?
The argument is ridiculous, conquest is everything, they lost that land, they were 'given' it back, and they have held on to it, that is the only truth.

[pinfireman]

On 24/05/2018 at 10:20, Rewulf said:

The Hebrew people have been persecuted by various tribes and kingdoms since before they were called Hebrews.

They also did a fair amount of persecuting themselves back in the days of Moses and Joshua.

The simple fact of the matter is , that was the way of the world back in those days, people were enslaved, exterminated and conquered on a very regular basis.
The Jews even exterminated some of their own people on more than one occasion, ethnic and religious 'cleansing' is nothing new'

The people of this country have been invaded, murdered and enslaved by foreign powers on numerous occasions.

If you want to be accurate about Jewish persecution, it has been a long hard road for them, and diasporas have happened to various European enclaves for the last 2000 years. Why ?
Also you have to ask the Ashkenasi question, if your line never set foot in the holy land, what rights do you have to it ?
Is it a right of the Jews, to lay claim to a land, because at one time 2000 years ago,your religion had its capital there ?
Do I have rights to a German or a French passport, and claims to lands there because of my Norman and Saxon heritage ?
The argument is ridiculous, conquest is everything, they lost that land, they were 'given' it back, and they have held on to it, that is the only truth.

If "conquest" is everything, then the Jews do have a right to Israel? They beat the **** out of the Arab nations since 1949! And, at the end of the day, it,s none of our business! Unless, of course, you want to re-establish the British Mandate over Palestine?

[Rewulf]

Have you ever heard of heard of the term 'possession  is 9/10s of the law' ?
Conquest IS everything, it also works both ways, you need to be able to hold onto your conquests.
It DOES NOT however, mean its RIGHT.

Do the Jews have  right to Israel/Palestine? Not really.
They were given a homeland in sympathy for the holocaust, for the fact that the world couldnt protect them from nazi German tyranny .
And since then have become the tyrants of the region.
They have the right to defend themselves, as has any nation, and I have always stuck up for them in the respect that they are surrounded by aggressors.

However, they are now directly causing the aggression by their systematic violence against the Palestinians .
They have become the nazis.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Rewulf
Wrong term

[Gordon R]

Rewulf - you have a valid point. My sympathy normally lies with the Israelis, but at the moment, they are making it hard to support them.