PR Steel data!

[Fen tiger]

https://www.precisionreloading.com/view.php?pg=Reloading_Data&utm_source=Lowest+Price+of+the+Year+on+In-Stock+Ammo&utm_campaign=Low+price+on+Ammo%2C+CCI+Primers+and+More&utm_medium=email

[Smiler23]

That's a lot of data, thanks for putting it up

[Fen tiger]

Dont know about anybody else and of course could be just coincidental but A steel powder did not feature as prolific in that data as one would expect and good old blue dot features in a bigger %age  of the data, could it just be  A steel is less popular now than the last few years. ?

Probably just me but i thought A steel would have been used in more of those loads than it was thats all .

Edited October 21, 2018 by Fen tiger

[6.5x55SE]

1 hour ago, Fen tiger said:

Dont know about anybody else and of course could be just coincidental but A steel powder did not feature as prolific in that data as one would expect and good old blue dot features in a bigger %age  of the data, could it just be  A steel is less popular now than the last few years. ?

Probably just me but i thought A steel would have been used in more of those loads than it was thats all .

Had a quick look especially the 20ga whilst i agree velocity/FPS is not the be all and end all in reloading but personally the FPS and powder weights seems low to me. Eg 18gr Alliant Steel 7/8oz Steel 2-3/4" case 1100 FPS 

[Fen tiger]

1 hour ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Had a quick look especially the 20ga whilst i agree velocity/FPS is not the be all and end all in reloading but personally the FPS and powder weights seems low to me. Eg 18gr Alliant Steel 7/8oz Steel 2-3/4" case 1100 FPS 

Agree and if you notice the slower loads use the A steel the faster loads generally seem to incorporate  other powders blue dot as an example which historically as been less progressive than A steel  powder , i know newer lots of A steel have changed in nature and reduction of charges practiced by some reloaders on the new A steel . I wonder if this data showing the blue dot loads with higher velocity is PRs answer to the nature of newer lots of A steel.

[motty]

I think for the pressures, they are pretty slow.

[Fen tiger]

2 hours ago, motty said:

I think for the pressures, they are pretty slow.

I think this is the way loads are going using the newer lots of A steel, its changed in nature if aliant admit it or not.

  If you look at this data as a whole and as i pointed out the faster loads are using the less progressive powders like blue dot longshot and the like , and yet the slower loads in the data seem generally to use A steel. Its in my opinion saying something about the nature performance of these newer lots, which are a stark contrast from A steel in the early lots we got around the time of the millennium.  I will admit i am loosing affinity with A steel since it came back, but in its early days i loved its performance and how it developed it .

Edited October 21, 2018 by Fen tiger

[motty]

3 hours ago, Fen tiger said:

I think this is the way loads are going using the newer lots of A steel, its changed in nature if aliant admit it or not.

  If you look at this data as a whole and as i pointed out the faster loads are using the less progressive powders like blue dot longshot and the like , and yet the slower loads in the data seem generally to use A steel. Its in my opinion saying something about the nature performance of these newer lots, which are a stark contrast from A steel in the early lots we got around the time of the millennium.  I will admit i am loosing affinity with A steel since it came back, but in its early days i loved its performance and how it developed it .

I personally think that these recipes aren't great. I will continue using the older data that I have, regardless of what batches are made.

In what way has Alliant Steel powder changed?

[Fen tiger]

44 minutes ago, motty said:

I personally think that these recipes aren't great. I will continue using the older data that I have, regardless of what batches are made.

In what way has Alliant Steel powder changed?

I don't know how its changed chemically, but if you loaded today on the later lots what you loaded with the original data  the new lots would be over pressure.   45 grain even 47 worked ok under 42 to say 44 gram loads in 10 fed cases fed 209A primers lot 4 5 6 7 by lot 13 it changed again then 17 and again somewhere in the late 20s im guessing it turned into what its like today now newer lots you have to reduce the powder charge to keep pressures down. Pressure is no guarantee of velocity but now its hard to achieve the speeds of older lot numbers without going over pressure .

With these kind of high performance powders jumps in pressure can be sudden and violent when they go over. Lots of talk on DHC on the A steel changes and it seems when people contacted Aliant they say nothing changed but it has as others not just me have found. Its usable but its simply not what it once was but apparently on a plus note it no longer needs Federal 209as to get good ignition in low temps the newer lots some report are better on ignition.

I think A steel would have featured more in data such as above say ten years ago but now the reemergence of blue dot i feel hints at the underlaying story . i reduce old data by around 6% you lose some performance but keep things safe on pressures and i no longer use Hotter primers just cx2000s with no change in ignition i notice. I have no love now for A steel i have moved on still have some left but wont buy anymore when its gone.

 

[motty]

59 minutes ago, Fen tiger said:

I don't know how its changed chemically, but if you loaded today on the later lots what you loaded with the original data  the new lots would be over pressure.   45 grain even 47 worked ok under 42 to say 44 gram loads in 10 fed cases fed 209A primers lot 4 5 6 7 by lot 13 it changed again then 17 and again somewhere in the late 20s im guessing it turned into what its like today now newer lots you have to reduce the powder charge to keep pressures down. Pressure is no guarantee of velocity but now its hard to achieve the speeds of older lot numbers without going over pressure .

With these kind of high performance powders jumps in pressure can be sudden and violent when they go over. Lots of talk on DHC on the A steel changes and it seems when people contacted Aliant they say nothing changed but it has as others not just me have found. Its usable but its simply not what it once was but apparently on a plus note it no longer needs Federal 209as to get good ignition in low temps the newer lots some report are better on ignition.

I think A steel would have featured more in data such as above say ten years ago but now the reemergence of blue dot i feel hints at the underlaying story . i reduce old data by around 6% you lose some performance but keep things safe on pressures and i no longer use Hotter primers just cx2000s with no change in ignition i notice. I have no love now for A steel i have moved on still have some left but wont buy anymore when its gone.

 

I don't understand how powder can change markedly from one batch to the next. Surely the ingredients and production must be the same. If it is much different, then surely it can't really be called the same product.

If this kind of batch variation was common, then surely every home loader would be wise to send off some samples of their loadings for testing, with each new tub of powder purchased.

[figgy]

If A Steel has changed surely Blue dot has too. 

Of Blue dot is giving good results great I can buy it locally, though i read its only safe upto a certain weight  of shot being faster burning than A Steel.  Would produce dangerously high pressure. 

Noticed with Blue Dot you have to use a lot more negating any saving over A Steel. Longshot was closer in grains. 

Edited October 23, 2018 by figgy

[guy baxendale]

On 22/10/2018 at 01:58, motty said:

I don't understand how powder can change markedly from one batch to the next. Surely the ingredients and production must be the same. If it is much different, then surely it can't really be called the same product.

If this kind of batch variation was common, then surely every home loader would be wise to send off some samples of their loadings for testing, with each new tub of powder purchased.

Agreed Wayne.

If this was the case surely companies would have to issue safety warnings?

[Fen tiger]

On 23/10/2018 at 13:04, guy baxendale said:

Agreed Wayne.

If this was the case surely companies would have to issue safety warnings?

Oh A steel has changed there is no doubt about that, if some people or alliant themselves recognise it or not, here is a link to a post on DHC on the subject of this very data. and this text from one post on that thread sums up my thoughts on the matter perfectly.

https://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=899974

 

Quote  from post DHC

Best guess and just a guess, Precisions noticed the variation/change in STEEL powder also, since all Alliant keeps saying is nothings changed but it seems everybody who uses STEEL has noticed a change, Precision is playing it safe and using reduced powder charges to compensate for any variations. Can say I blame them for it.

 

[motty]

28 minutes ago, Fen tiger said:

Oh A steel has changed there is no doubt about that, if some people or alliant themselves recognise it or not, here is a link to a post on DHC on the subject of this very data. and this text from one post on that thread sums up my thoughts on the matter perfectly.

https://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=899974

 

Quote  from post DHC

Best guess and just a guess, Precisions noticed the variation/change in STEEL powder also, since all Alliant keeps saying is nothings changed but it seems everybody who uses STEEL has noticed a change, Precision is playing it safe and using reduced powder charges to compensate for any variations. Can say I blame them for it.

 

If it has changed, then so be it. My loads will still be loaded to the data I have. My data says, for example "38gns of Alliant steel", not "38gns of Alliant steel, lots 5 - 12" etc.

[Fen tiger]

54 minutes ago, motty said:

If it has changed, then so be it. My loads will still be loaded to the data I have. My data says, for example "38gns of Alliant steel", not "38gns of Alliant steel, lots 5 - 12" etc.

So be it ! Thats it!  you said it. Your safe in that you are not alone in your take on this. Carry on regardless .

[MAB1954]

Thanks for putting up data. Just one question where are folk getting those wads in UK?

Thanks.

[Smiler23]

Clay game sell them

[Continental Shooter]

I don't think is sensible to use old data with new batches, especially when evidence suggest there are big changes. A powder that's become quicker in burning rate will lose speed and increase pressure on a like for like load meaning your 1500 fps shell might turn into a 1200 fps but with much higher pressure making it incomparable in terms of performances with what you used before. As its been noted on many overseas forums, A-Steel has thrown up random results when old data was used with new batches (I think I read something about loads retorted up to 15000 psi).  I know these might be extremes but  there is a reason why serious reloading companies run like for like tests and publish results...

Just my thoughts though

[motty]

44 minutes ago, Continental Shooter said:

I don't think is sensible to use old data with new batches, especially when evidence suggest there are big changes. A powder that's become quicker in burning rate will lose speed and increase pressure on a like for like load meaning your 1500 fps shell might turn into a 1200 fps but with much higher pressure making it incomparable in terms of performances with what you used before. As its been noted on many overseas forums, A-Steel has thrown up random results when old data was used with new batches (I think I read something about loads retorted up to 15000 psi).  I know these might be extremes but  there is a reason why serious reloading companies run like for like tests and publish results...

Just my thoughts though

Could you come up with a logical explanation of why the newer batches are supposedly getting hotter and hotter? I just don't buy it! I might expect slight variation from batch to batch, but not each one giving progressively higher pressures. It makes no sense.

[Continental Shooter]

I'm afraid I can't. There are many factors and processes in making powder that each one could have an impact. Extrusion of the power flakenitself could be an important factor. Commercial is another factor if Alliant produces powder for other manufacturers or even a market adjustment to accommodate certain components (Fiocchi and Cheddite primers are weaker than standard American primers). The possibilities are endless but the evidence is there and has been supplied by reputable sources whom can't afford to publish bogus data. Your load might still be usable, but it ain't gonna be what you're used to...for better or worse

Edited November 2, 2018 by Continental Shooter

[figgy]

Surely if the data is no good and the powder varies as much as some are saying Alliant are obliged to say so. Especially in the USA where litigation is common. 

I have read the topics on DHC about lots of A Steel being different and others say it’s not. 

Has anyone had carts tested to see if there are high pressures and low speeds. 

[motty]

17 minutes ago, figgy said:

Surely if the data is no good and the powder varies as much as some are saying Alliant are obliged to say so. Especially in the USA where litigation is common. 

I have read the topics on DHC about lots of A Steel being different and others say it’s not. 

Has anyone had carts tested to see if there are high pressures and low speeds. 

If Alliant Steel is subject to such variation from "standard" then surely other similar powders are affected.

[Continental Shooter]

I think I read somewhere they need to legally notify changes only above a certain treshold which, if I recall correctly is 20%. On DHC there are guys that tested old recipes from BPI and other published data and some turn out dodgy. I think even from looking at the data here againstbokd manuals you can see an increase in pressure using US primer whereas there the data for EU primer seem to have improved. That shows that weaker primer now ignate the powder sufficiently well whereas hotter primer have higher pressure for not so much more speed

[Fen tiger]

Looking at the test results some have shared off DHC and GHC & other forums , the newer lots look to generate pressures in excess of many published loads from older data on the current A Steel .

.  Alliant apparently refute any significant changes but data on their site when tested is over sami pressures and its generaly viewed by those who accept or have noticed the change in loads they have used to reduce loads in older published data by 10% . Its what i do now at least for a start but reducing powder charges can reduce velocity and with the newer lots i feel to achieve published velocity in older data loads while maintaining as published pressures is impossible to achieve now.

[Continental Shooter]

This is the discussion I was referring to, includig some retested data 

https://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=891441&start=25

obviously i didn't recall  corectly and tolerance seems to run at 10% 😥