Rfd to Rfd

[Scully]

18 hours ago, timps said:

The legality is clause 3 of your certificate which says.

If you are selling a firearm [or shotgun] which will be sent or posted to another dealer for the buyer to collect in person you should complete this table and notify the police. The dealer who actually hands over the firearm should not complete the table or notify the police (except in circumstances which may require police investigation as above).

If you have personally brokered and advertised the sale then that’s the law you and the RFD’s are breaking, if the final RFD brokers, advertises and sells the gun then no law has been broken, like auction house or sale or return.

However, in the case you have outlined the gun has already been sold before the final RFD knows about it therefore you are legally obliged to follow clause 3, in law you can’t pretend you haven’t sold it and the RFD has, that is not the spirit of the above law and any judge would take a dim view of it if it was ever proven that's what you did.

The sticking point for the police is proving you sold it and are now pretending the final RFD did.

It is a gamble, you may or may not convince a jury that everyone is innocent, and they have to prove beyond reasonable doubt for a conviction which might be very hard with your scenario indeed.

However, Firearms departments can revoke a certificate or RFD without a court case and just on the balance of probabilities.

Therefore, any FEO looking in depth that sees a shooter gifting an expensive gun to an RFD who immediately gifts this gun to another dealer who then gifts that gun to anther shooter in a very short period of time miles apart knows this is not how business make money or work and may revoke on the balance of probabilities if this practice continues without the need to prove it beyond reasonable doubt.

The money going through the RFD’s books as sold is more believable but this does have tax and liability issues for the RFD’s involved. If the police then link the dots due to looking at the books and finding no commission, no profit and only transfer fees therefore deem the certificate holder brokered the sale personally then you fall foul of clause 3 again.

As an individual certificate holder chance of getting caught are low, as an RFD that is continual doing it the chances are higher, however if the certificate holder has sold the gun to be collected from an RFD in law he can’t pretend he didn’t just to get around the conditions on his cert. Therefore  if you actually admitted to the judge your scenario you would fall foul of the law, but the police trying to prove it might be hard without that admission.

Thanks for that; very interesting and informative.  I can’t understand however ( given what you’ve posted ) why many RFD’s are willing to risk their businesses simply for the cost of writing a gun into their register! 

 

[gotgcoalman]

My thought was.......

agree a price with seller.

arrange rfd at this end. seller takes gun to his local rfd (face to face)so it's now his rfds gun.

rfd to rfd (they do funny hand shake stuff and never need to meet)

gun gets sent via some magic.

Put on my rfd's register (so effectivly his gun)

I pick it up (face to face) and he signs it over to me.

Not the case..

It's with the sellers rfd now with my cert in the box to be shipped to my rfd on Monday.

I assume it will be at my rfd within 24hours.

 

what a faff on.

The moral of the story is BUY LOCAL if you can.

 

 

[timps]

5 hours ago, Scully said:

Thanks for that; very interesting and informative.  I can’t understand however ( given what you’ve posted ) why many RFD’s are willing to risk their businesses simply for the cost of writing a gun into their register! 

 

My guess is back in the day no one cared so people just did it. Now with  accountability it’s a different matter. 

I know in my area if they saw your certificate once you could buy carts without ever producing it again.  Then GMP had some kind of audit and issues were identified and a total review of firearms was instigated on the back of it, now everything is by the book common sense out the window and your cert is at risk if you don’t follow the rules to the letter.  

They did give RDF’s a massive wake up call to toe the line. This has now caught on with other areas so what was once overlooked is now not. 

But if you live in an area that is not as keen as others you can still be a bit more lax.

[gotgcoalman]

Little gun arrived at my RFD today.

Worth the faff on.

Action is smooth tight in all the right places.Wood work is intact.Bluing still present.No pitting.

Nothing else to do but use it😎 and buy a "quiet can"

Just need to get some crackers.🙄

RFD then told me Durham are going to enforce the sending of cert to seller now also.

[Spoon]

On 22/03/2019 at 19:39, gotgcoalman said:

My thought was.......

agree a price with seller.

arrange rfd at this end. seller takes gun to his local rfd (face to face)so it's now his rfds gun.

rfd to rfd (they do funny hand shake stuff and never need to meet)

gun gets sent via some magic.

Put on my rfd's register (so effectivly his gun)

I pick it up (face to face) and he signs it over to me.

 

 

Never done it but assumed this was the way. That never leaves the buyer without a cert, nor possibly in possession of a cert with a gun you don't have yet (if it doesn't travel back with the gun) and flows nicely through two reputable RFDs. Interesting to find out this isn't the case and confirm I'll stick with F2F. 

[gotgcoalman]

Sound moderator arrived at my RFD yesterday.

He entered it on my certificate as .410 sound moderator?

I phoned Durham up to question this and was told that I had to inform them in writing or by Email that I had purchased it so it could be entered on my records.

Don't know how this is going to work as they don't have a serial number on them,YET.

Does this now mean I have 2 other moderators for 12 bores that are illegal?

Is it just Durham who have decided to do this or it it a country wide thing?

[steve_b_wales]

From BASC:

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2014/08/REMOTE-FIREARMS-TRANSACTIONS2.pdf

[SPARKIE]

I was just about to post that link steve im having the same issue selling a sound mod.... spoken to 2 gun shops, Derbyshire constabulary and basc.

the person buying will have to send his fac to either me or my rfd for me to add it too his cert... then my rfd can send the cert and mod via registered courier to his rfd for collection.

I could lose a sale due to this.... ive said many will vouch on here for me.... but there's clearly some doubt still.

oh well anyone want to buy a pes 12 face to face lol

[Scully]

🙂 Ridiculous piece of firearms legislation. Like much of it, it defies logic or common sense. 🤔

[steve_b_wales]

I've just purchased two shotguns off wabbitbosher and sent my SC to him via Royal Mail signed for. He's going to send them to a RFD friend of mine for me to collect.

[SPARKIE]

That's what gillyb needs to do with me either send his fac to me to sign or to my rfd then my rfd posts it too his rfd. The problem is he don't know me I've said there's plenty on here who can vouch for me just up to him now. The same problems going to happen to loads of people.

[Newbie to this]

1 minute ago, SPARKIE said:

That's what gillyb needs to do with me either send his fac to me to sign or to my rfd then my rfd posts it too his rfd. The problem is he don't know me I've said there's plenty on here who can vouch for me just up to him now. The same problems going to happen to loads of people.

Did you suggest that he sends it to your RFD as opposed to yourself?

Maybe he would be more comfortable that way.

Could he arrange with your RFD to do this? That way they hold his cert and you fill it in when sending the gun through them and are never in possession of his cert.

[SPARKIE]

yes suggested that.

spoken to him on phone also.

to be fair I don't blame him for being cautious its  ridiculous but basc said a lot are doing it its law.

[SPARKIE]

Now lost a sale due to it.

[Old graham]

what is the point of having a photo on your FAC if you are going to post it to someone to enter a gun on.  He cannot tell if it is your fac.

[rbrowning2]

On 07/04/2021 at 20:57, Old graham said:

what is the point of having a photo on your FAC if you are going to post it to someone to enter a gun on.  He cannot tell if it is your fac.

Indeed but when you go to collect the gun from the rfd it was sent to he will check your FAC at that time before handing over the gun, if the photo is of Micky mouse and not you I guess they will not handover the gun and will call the police.

 

[Walker570]

Just purchased a shotgun from down south and had it shipped to my local RFD for 'appraisal' prior to buying. Gun arrived in short order , I appraised it and that RFD filled in my certificate, charging me a small fee for handling. Original RFD had my Bank Card details and the deal was done. Very smooth transaction.

I was certainly not going to let go of my SGC, that's for sure.

[rbrowning2]

9 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Just purchased a shotgun from down south and had it shipped to my local RFD for 'appraisal' prior to buying. Gun arrived in short order , I appraised it and that RFD filled in my certificate, charging me a small fee for handling. Original RFD had my Bank Card details and the deal was done. Very smooth transaction.

I was certainly not going to let go of my SGC, that's for sure.

So what did the rfd write on your certificate, sold, given, or other ?

for the law is quite clear the sell is legal responsible for filling in your certificate.

 

[Walker570]

Sold

[rbrowning2]

23 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Sold

So as you have described it, your rfd lied then as they did not sell the gun and the law was not followed as the seller did not make the entry on your certificate. Very smooth indeed.
 

 

[Walker570]

I would assume the second RFD was classed as acting as an 'agent' of the first.   Paperwork went through and dit not touch the sides so the FLO appeared quite happy.

I suppose not to disimilar to the wholesaler passing on a gun to a retailer then on to the customer and as long as the transaction is registered correctly I cannot see the problem and obviously niether could the FLO.

[timps]

12 hours ago, Walker570 said:

I would assume the second RFD was classed as acting as an 'agent' of the first.   Paperwork went through and dit not touch the sides so the FLO appeared quite happy.

I suppose not to disimilar to the wholesaler passing on a gun to a retailer then on to the customer and as long as the transaction is registered correctly I cannot see the problem and obviously niether could the FLO.

As I posted earlier on in this thread some time back If you look at guidance, instruction 3 of your own certificate it tells anyone filling the certificate in what they must and must not do.

“If you are selling shotgun (s) which will be sent or posted to another dealer for the buyer to collect in person you should complete this table and notify the police. The dealer who actually hands over the firearm should not complete the table or notify the police (except in circumstances which may require police investigation as above).”

Accordingly instruction 3 is binding on any seller including dealers.

Seeing as you paid the original RFD down south and only paid the local RDF a handling fee he has broken the law by not following instruction 3 on your certificate.

In the eyes of the law there is no debate or grey area he sold the gun then he must make the necessary entries on the buyer’s firearm or shotgun certificate.

Regardless of how your FEO originally reacted many are now enforcing this law after an audit. Usually with a quiet word with the RFD to comply for future transactions or risk loosing their certificate.

Edited April 12, 2021 by timps