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lancer425

3.5 inch 12 bore reloads

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I have a couple of 3.5 inch 12s a auto and a ou ( But usually only use 2 3/4 & 3 inch ) but  also use two 10s, the trouble is the ten bores  although duck capable are not quite as handy for duck as  my 3.5 12s.

 A week or so ago i asked In this post Here.

 for advice for suitable duck loads that cycle the auto ten.  overall i am Pleased with my results, yet i still feel its Over kill with 38 gram of 2s .

I recognise that the 10 is the way to go if your trying to target geese with steel at 60 or so yards the 10 and BBB (4.83mm ) are a killer combination on geese and load those BBBs to 1500 and some more fps through a good choke to put a few more of those BBBs on the spot and your getting close to optimum for steel shot at range.

 So Why this post?

 Well i have never used Bigger than BB steel in a 12 ( any 12) and my 3.5 inch reloading  experience  in steel is just a couple of 381 loads in 2s and BBs .

Taking this into account and with all the web pages and the myriad of forum threads labelling the 3.5 inch 12 as a waste of space i hardly feel encouraged to try and make the 3.5 work as a much over 50 yard reliable goose killer with steel.

What i would like advice on from those with more experience with the 3.5 is at typical 3.5 inch steel velocities 1400fps tops with 42 gram plus loads , is it worth knocking the loads down to 38 or 40 gram of BBs and losing the few extra pellets and try for every last FPS i can get or stick out for a full load  to get the extra pellet count.

I wantis  12 that i use for duck yet  to be goose capable at 50 yards plus and that’s without being totally dependent on a head neck hit with a tight choke and pellet count  i am leaning towards the BBs to have enough clout to do the job on a reasonable body hit  of pellets.

I want to stick to steel only to avoid needing a different choke i realise using other shot types will get what i want done, but i want to stick with steel.

Thoughts and your experience please.

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42g of BBB's still work in the 12g.

I've also had success with 42g of 4.0mm steel at the ranges sought.

At the end of the day, I think it has a lot to do with confidence.

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Gamebore Mammoth 3.5" BB's are an awesome cartridge, they will do all you need at normal (Non Dave Carrie or Perazzishot) ranges.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

42g of BBB's still work in the 12g.

I've also had success with 42g of 4.0mm steel at the ranges sought.

At the end of the day, I think it has a lot to do with confidence.

Thanks and i agree on the confidence something i am sadly lacking , i suppose i made that clear in my post. :lol:

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34 minutes ago, Diss4111 said:

Gamebore Mammoth 3.5" BB's are an awesome cartridge, they will do all you need at normal (Non Dave Carrie or Perazzishot) ranges.

Good point ( normal range) and why i set the bar a little lower with the 12 and 3.5 inch.  everything is a compromise some where the 10 is not just as handy for duck but still works, and the 12 though fine for duck is not just as good when the geese are out there a little so simple answer don’t expect quite as  much from the 12  to begin with.

Smokersmith i never considered 4.0mm i suppose that’s B in American or thereabouts might get potentially a few more pellets in the pattern and yet not lose much from BB and is a third option from my usual BBS and 2s (USA) .

 

 

 

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maybe you shouldnt feel overkill using the 10 on ducks, alliant have loads of 36g, and 42g in the 10.

36g seems optimal for alliant steel in the 3". its mega efficient. 

 

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I had a 10 bore auto but it was hopeless for ducks. It was too heavy to swing after a teal that flashes past you. The 12 isn't.

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10 hours ago, cookoff013 said:

maybe you shouldnt feel overkill using the 10 on ducks, alliant have loads of 36g, and 42g in the 10.

36g seems optimal for alliant steel in the 3". its mega efficient. 

 

Several reasons where the ten starts to fall apart as a duck gun, i use auto most of the time its needing enough humph to cycle the action thats powder a lot of it add to this the powder i  found worked best was vitavouri and 70 plus a kilo. where as duck load in 12 i use is csb5 and half that price, i need to load over 35 grain to push the 38 gram load so use 10 grain more powder and ten gram more shot.

 I use B&P 28 wad yet the ten load uses RSI wads not as cheap by a long shot and i have to space the wad up in the ten load.

This was my main reason i wanted to get the 12 working better for geese, i have the 10 suitable for the occasional duck, but i dont want to waste shot wads and powder plus cases remember its an auto i never get them all back.  i am running Winchester cases, but even with cheaper chedites if i modify the load to try and incorporate the cheaper chedite hulll they are 35 a hundred where the 12 duck load hulls are free from the clayground.

So this taken into account i want to get a 12 3.5 inch not to match a ten i know that wont happen but to try and get the 12 3.5 that bit closer than the 36 gram BB load i have usually loaded .

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10 hours ago, Diss4111 said:

I had a 10 bore auto but it was hopeless for ducks. It was too heavy to swing after a teal that flashes past you. The 12 isn't.

I agree they are not quite as handy as the 12s although the gold light is the best handling semi auto or pump ten i ever owned . Add the tens handling to what i said above , its clearly notr ideal for duck shooting and certainly not good if the volume of shots is significant any time.

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I personally think you're wasting your time chasing 1500fps, 1350-1400 is more than adequate with 42gr of BBB from a 3.5" 12. I've not loaded BBB in a while as i ran out, but BB or 1s have done the job on any foreshore geese I come across.

I save the hevi shot for the big gun on geese

 

 

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Lancer425. I've cleanly shot/killed a lot of Geese with every bore/gauge from .410 to 2 Bore my Regular foreshore gun is 3.5" chamber using 3" homeload 36g Steel B's 2's for Geese and 2-3/4" 32g steel 3's for Duck.

If you are dead set on loading 3.5" cartridges I'd use 42g B's for Geese and 36g 3's for Duck . Smokersmith imho is spot on with the confidence point one of many reasons i shoot a lot of Geese with a 20ga using Steel shot. Without wishing to offend a fellow experienced wildfowler advice I've given to my Grandson and other shooter's is " address your chosen quarry with gun in hand NOT the Gauge/Bore "

In your case don't go thinking eg you can only kill Geese at 60yrd using your 10ga when you are armed with your 12ga.

Use the BBB's i use " Bum Bill Bang "  good luck keep us posted

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Good points all i have long been a 20 ga user and as such realise  shot is shot it has no idea what size of bore it coming  out of, yet equally with steel you are limited on payload in the smaller bores which can  have a real bearing on max  range and pattern density . Juggling the shot size payload  velocity and choke, if you place the shot charge where it needs to be you can start to wonder at times why you shoot anything else. And if you add  bismuth or heavier than lead shot to the 20😀 well that is another thing altogether.

My biggest problem with the 3.5 inch 12 is my lack of experience with it the shortfall mainly is  that old confidence thing. I don’t at present have a load for the 3.5 inch 12 i have confidence in.

Velocity ? i like the old light fast loads this is where i started with steel 20 years ago i saw enough back then to convince me that it was worthwhile, i know its not needed and dead is dead you can not get more dead and i know the  longer downrange advantages look small compared to slower loads yet at  close to medium  ranges even the theoretical figures look healthier.  I do not see any 42 gram loads in the 12 getting much over 1400fps anyway pressure will get in the way with any powder i have seen if your much over this.  And  at 42 gram the the possibility to use  bigger shot will help the cause.

I am trying two loads to start with in my 425 waterfowl will be both with A 381 and one a chedite case about 38 grain thats around 1400fps, and the other in federal case with a sam 1 wad and will see how they do and post up what they do .

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On ‎21‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 08:37, lancer425 said:

 

4mm steel is American 1 shot. 4.3mm is American B.

My favourite factory steel goose load is Remington 1 3/4 oz BB. They kill very well at impressive ranges. They are only quoted at 1260 fps. For this reason, I would not bother chasing high velocity. If I were you I would go for a 42gm load in BBB, BB, B or 1, and somewhere in the 1250 - 1400fps bracket.

 

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1 hour ago, motty said:

4mm steel is American 1 shot. 4.3mm is American B.

My favourite factory steel goose load is Remington 1 3/4 oz BB. They kill very well at impressive ranges. They are only quoted at 1260 fps. For this reason, I would not bother chasing high velocity. If I were you I would go for a 42gm load in BBB, BB, B or 1, and somewhere in the 1250 - 1400fps bracket.

 

You are right on the steel shot sizes, i was mixing up lead and steel sizes USA BB is 4.57mm .  I take on board what you say regards Remington 3.55s have you choreographed any ?  as i see johnytheboy as not got them on his comprehensive list. ( thanks for your work by the way Johny the boy ) .

  Talking about the list the winchester ammo the blindside and drylock if the shot charges they quote are true they have 46 gram and 44 gram respectively that good shot weight for velocity and only 20fps under the mamoth which was the fastest at 1428fps but a 42 gram load. Winchester must be using a decent powder.

As i said earlier i doubt my reloads will be much if anything over 1400fps in the a 381 load. thanks for your advice .

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On 21/03/2019 at 07:40, Diss4111 said:

Gamebore Mammoth 3.5" BB's are an awesome cartridge, they will do all you need at normal (Non Dave Carrie or Perazzishot) ranges.

 

 

 

I agree on the BB mammoth. I had a terrible month in January on the shore with the Browning 10. Come February I rethought my tactics and took out the Bennelli 3.5 inch 12. I concentrated on picking up the line and pulling through which is easier with the lighter gun and hey presto I was killing birds again. So at the same ranges of 50-60 yds the 12 does it. Relating my experience to a freind he agreed and had sold his 10 in favour of the lighter and more pointable SX3. Modern steel loads will do the job in 12 although I will still largely shoot the 10.

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6 hours ago, lancer425 said:

You are right on the steel shot sizes, i was mixing up lead and steel sizes USA BB is 4.57mm .  I take on board what you say regards Remington 3.55s have you choreographed any ?  as i see johnytheboy as not got them on his comprehensive list. ( thanks for your work by the way Johny the boy ) .

  Talking about the list the winchester ammo the blindside and drylock if the shot charges they quote are true they have 46 gram and 44 gram respectively that good shot weight for velocity and only 20fps under the mamoth which was the fastest at 1428fps but a 42 gram load. Winchester must be using a decent powder.

As i said earlier i doubt my reloads will be much if anything over 1400fps in the a 381 load. thanks for your advice .

Forgot to mention, those Remingtons are obviously in the 10. My point stands, though; slowish steel BBs work at long range, and a lot further than most would imagine.

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44 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

I agree on the BB mammoth. I had a terrible month in January on the shore with the Browning 10. Come February I rethought my tactics and took out the Bennelli 3.5 inch 12. I concentrated on picking up the line and pulling through which is easier with the lighter gun and hey presto I was killing birds again. So at the same ranges of 50-60 yds the 12 does it. Relating my experience to a freind he agreed and had sold his 10 in favour of the lighter and more pointable SX3. Modern steel loads will do the job in 12 although I will still largely shoot the 10.

Pleased you found the 3.5 inch 12 a capable alternative and that it got you back in the game and got you through a glitch in your shooting form.

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1 minute ago, motty said:

Forgot to mention, those Remingtons are obviously in the 10. My point stands, though; slowish steel BBs work at long range, and a lot further than most would imagine.

Sorry i misunderstood you, thought you were talking about 12 3.5s by Remington.

I have achieved some good shots and seen many more with what could be termed as Slower steel loads, One shot this past season was in a greylag on a river bank the flood plain was 50 m ( I have range findered  this section)the shooter was with me using a Extrema mark 1 with the factory full choke in , and using a Hull salway steel  marked BB the goose was not high 15 yards no more but it was 50m across the shore from us and it went down like it was hit by a train.  I have seen the patterns from this Beretta with that full choke and its a good tight pattern at 40 yards i never seen it be patterned any further but owner has and thinks its good at 50. That gun and load killed the greylag so i imagine he is right about the 50 yard patterns that greylag was a LONG WAY.

 So that’s just one recent event proves if it needed proving slower steel loads will work.

Now as i said earlier i have had good results with fast light steel loads for a great many years on geese and ducks but i admit mostly duck with these type loads. being 7/8th oz loads i wanted a good pellet count so went with steel 3 MM  and 3.8 mm and at 1760 FPS they were capable killers at any ranges i shoot at on duck and geese within reason  bearing in mind the payload.

In theory if you put the figures in KPY or look on one of the predicted velocity charts the faster load looses comparatively more speed at long ranges than a slower type of steel load, but that is at typical maximum range , having said this the fast loads are still going faster at this range, but up to that point at 20 30 40 yards the speeds here are relative to the ranges but considerably faster and each pellet has theoretically more FTlbs of energy.

You dont need this speed but it has some use if you want to go to the trouble of loading it.  There are a few downsides to these fast loads. Each load dependant on case and components and speed will need 40 to 46 grain of powder and at these speeds it is not guaranteed your gun and choke will throw good patterns, fast loads are notorious for not patterning well so anybody contemplating these fast loads should get ready for some patterning up sessions and choke swapping before they get them working well.

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20 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Sorry i misunderstood you, thought you were talking about 12 3.5s by Remington.

I have achieved some good shots and seen many more with what could be termed as Slower steel loads, One shot this past season was in a greylag on a river bank the flood plain was 50 m ( I have range findered  this section)the shooter was with me using a Extrema mark 1 with the factory full choke in , and using a Hull salway steel  marked BB the goose was not high 15 yards no more but it was 50m across the shore from us and it went down like it was hit by a train.  I have seen the patterns from this Beretta with that full choke and its a good tight pattern at 40 yards i never seen it be patterned any further but owner has and thinks its good at 50. That gun and load killed the greylag so i imagine he is right about the 50 yard patterns that greylag was a LONG WAY.

 So that’s just one recent event proves if it needed proving slower steel loads will work.

Now as i said earlier i have had good results with fast light steel loads for a great many years on geese and ducks but i admit mostly duck with these type loads. being 7/8th oz loads i wanted a good pellet count so went with steel 3 MM  and 3.8 mm and at 1760 FPS they were capable killers at any ranges i shoot at on duck and geese within reason  bearing in mind the payload.

In theory if you put the figures in KPY or look on one of the predicted velocity charts the faster load looses comparatively more speed at long ranges than a slower type of steel load, but that is at typical maximum range , having said this the fast loads are still going faster at this range, but up to that point at 20 30 40 yards the speeds here are relative to the ranges but considerably faster and each pellet has theoretically more FTlbs of energy.

You dont need this speed but it has some use if you want to go to the trouble of loading it.  There are a few downsides to these fast loads. Each load dependant on case and components and speed will need 40 to 46 grain of powder and at these speeds it is not guaranteed your gun and choke will throw good patterns, fast loads are notorious for not patterning well so anybody contemplating these fast loads should get ready for some patterning up sessions and choke swapping before they get them working well.

I believed everything you said except the full choke bit. Everyone knows you can't use steel with anything over half. :lol:.

Seriously, though, I loaded some 1 oz steel at 1800fps. I certainly didn't like them, as the kick was fierce for such a small load. I'm not saying that fast loads are no good. My old favourite load was another in the 10 - 42gm BBs loaded to 1550 fps. Smooth enough, and smacked the pinks hard.

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15 minutes ago, motty said:

I believed everything you said except the full choke bit. Everyone knows you can't use steel with anything over half. :lol:.

Seriously, though, I loaded some 1 oz steel at 1800fps. I certainly didn't like them, as the kick was fierce for such a small load. I'm not saying that fast loads are no good. My old favourite load was another in the 10 - 42gm BBs loaded to 1550 fps. Smooth enough, and smacked the pinks hard.

That 10 load is my go to load in my tens too i like BBBs in it though, i iuse a terror .720 and strange as it sounds the BBBs are tighter patterning than the BBs with this choke, to get BBs putting the same % not pellet count in same size pattern i would have to go tighter on chokes to .705 ???.

 I agree on recoil but i use a baikal auto its a heavy soft shooting gun and it fits me perfect so recoil is not something i personally worry too much about. But i will admit if i were to use the fast loads in my 425 waterfowl i might not be so tolerant of the recoil in that gun. :lol:

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