Rewulf Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: If a second vote returned a leave outcome with the specifics defined I really don’t see how anyone could justifiably try to prevent it. You mean stipulating a no deal Brexit? Thats just the same as splitting the leave vote though isnt it ? Plus, even if it was still leave after that, it still has to pass Parliament ! So yes they would try to prevent it . 5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: If an impasse on no deal occurs in Parliament, which is likely, then would a public vote between no deal Brexit and Remain be splitting the leave vote in your opinion? Yes, especially since the original referendum result has not been implemented. We should come out first, organise a WTO transitional period with tariff free trade, something easily do able with the agreement of the EU , THEN have a public vote on whether to continue with no deal, or organise a softer Brexit, or even rejoin if that was the mood. They are simply trying to fudge it so bad, we stay. In which case you might as well give Farage the keys to no 10 now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: If there was another vote (and there should not be) - three things need to be taken into consideration. First - that the leave/remain question has already been answered. That answer was a 'leave'. (And I in fact voted remain, but accept the answer) Second - the May deal has failed three times - and is effectively dead (mainly because of the 'backstop'.) Third - the choice is leave now (31st October) with 'no deal' - or try and leave later with a 'renegotiated' deal (assuming we can get an extension yet again - and that negotiations can be reopened). The answer from the referendum may have been leave but it's only now that the consequences of that vote are beginning to be understood by the wider electorate. It is still not clear what if any deal could possibly be put on the table that would a sufficient majority of parliament to get it agreed. We are fortunate indeed that our elected politicians have been able to stave off the extremist, out at all costs, view taken by some. The options for a deal or for that matter no deal are still not clarified and there is insufficient weight within any political alliance to clearly set out the options. It should now be clear, to most, that the expected quickie behind the bike sheds, leaving both the UK and the EU satisfied, is not going to happen. We need to pause for breath and rethink our approach to the conundrum but that will take leadership that we are unlikely to find in the kipper likely to step into the leadership role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 17 minutes ago, oowee said: The answer from the referendum may have been leave but it's only now that the consequences of that vote are beginning to be understood by the wider electorate. It is still not clear what if any deal could possibly be put on the table that would a sufficient majority of parliament to get it agreed. We are fortunate indeed that our elected politicians have been able to stave off the extremist, out at all costs, view taken by some. The options for a deal or for that matter no deal are still not clarified and there is insufficient weight within any political alliance to clearly set out the options. It should now be clear, to most, that the expected quickie behind the bike sheds, leaving both the UK and the EU satisfied, is not going to happen. We need to pause for breath and rethink our approach to the conundrum but that will take leadership that we are unlikely to find in the kipper likely to step into the leadership role. Virtually all points youve made in that statement point towards remain being the best course forward (in your opinion) The EU was never going to be satisfied with the quickie behind the bike sheds, the only 'relationship' they are interested in, was the one where the UK is kept in a hidden part of the basement and 'used' when Brussels fancied it. I like the way you describe people who see no deal as the only way forward as 'extremists' , I never thought I would rise to such heights , but here I am 😂 Likewise 'pause for breath' ? to do what exactly ? Faff around for another 3 years and hope some of the extremists die of old age ? Id rather take the kipper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Virtually all points youve made in that statement point towards remain being the best course forward (in your opinion) The EU was never going to be satisfied with the quickie behind the bike sheds, the only 'relationship' they are interested in, was the one where the UK is kept in a hidden part of the basement and 'used' when Brussels fancied it. I like the way you describe people who see no deal as the only way forward as 'extremists' , I never thought I would rise to such heights , but here I am 😂 Likewise 'pause for breath' ? to do what exactly ? Faff around for another 3 years and hope some of the extremists die of old age ? Id rather take the kipper. Pause for breath to look again at what we are trying to achieve through departure, and seek common ground with the EU. If there is no common ground between the the two (this can't be true whichever side of the fence you sit on) then you go back to the electorate with a set out no deal and remain vote. Alternatively if there is common ground you go back to the electorate with the available deal and remain. The kipper will be short lived and the gammon's will split the vote's of the main party's in an election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, oowee said: Pause for breath to look again at what we are trying to achieve through departure This was covered extensively during the referendum campaign. You want to go there again , seriously ? 2 minutes ago, oowee said: and seek common ground with the EU. This was covered by Camerons begging bowl coming back empty on numerous occasions. The wants us to stay, and to make that happen, the 'common ground' will be laid with traps and poison. 'You are with us or against us' is their mentality. 7 minutes ago, oowee said: then you go back to the electorate with a set out no deal and remain vote. Alternatively if there is common ground you go back to the electorate with the available deal and remain. You mean twist the vote to favour remain ? Mr Farage will pick the keys up to his new residence on Downing street shortly afterwards thank you. 9 minutes ago, oowee said: The kipper will be short lived and the gammon's will split the vote's of the main party's in an election. I think you underestimate the kipper, and the will of the 17.4m makes a very convincing coalition. More than capable of taking on a millions Scottish nationalists, less than million lib dems, and a labour party in disarray . Youre dreaming Grant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 In 1914, if you'd asked the electorate if they wanted a war with Germany you'd have had a resounding yes vote. If you'd asked them if they still wanted the war at a cost of a million dead young men the answer might have been different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Retsdon said: In 1914, if you'd asked the electorate if they wanted a war with Germany you'd have had a resounding yes vote. If you'd asked them if they still wanted the war at a cost of a million dead young men the answer might have been different. And how many would have said it was worth doing to try to preserve our independence.......if subsequently, they were living under the German jackboot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 So you are happy to go along with the everyman for himself lowest common denominator (salaries, working conditions, environmental protection etc) approach that follows from a no deal Brexit? Do you seriously believe that no deal means no deal????? No deal is a pre cursor for getting the deal that we should have been able to get in we had some enlightened negotiation. 7 minutes ago, Retsdon said: In 1914, if you'd asked the electorate if they wanted a war with Germany you'd have had a resounding yes vote. If you'd asked them if they still wanted the war at a cost of a million dead young men the answer might have been different. The truth is a bitter pill to swallow. Unfortunately we are now driven by flawed ideologies there is no one able to get back to basics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 9 minutes ago, Retsdon said: In 1914, if you'd asked the electorate if they wanted a war with Germany you'd have had a resounding yes vote. If you'd asked them if they still wanted the war at a cost of a million dead young men the answer might have been different. Great analogy Retsdon ! For starters no government ever asks the electorate if they fancy a war, you get one, end of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, panoma1 said: And how many would have said it was worth doing to try to preserve our independence.......if subsequently, they were living under the German jackboot? This is exactly the issue with Brexit. We see the problem as a problem with the other side. I am sure neither side would have wanted the conflict knowing the reality of what would preside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, oowee said: So you are happy to go along with the everyman for himself lowest common denominator (salaries, working conditions, environmental protection etc) approach that follows from a no deal Brexit? Do you seriously believe that no deal means no deal????? No deal is a pre cursor for getting the deal that we should have been able to get in we had some enlightened negotiation. How do you know what follows a no deal Brexit ? No deal IS a precursor to getting a deal, because at least from THAT position, we have something to negotiate with. At the moment we have NOTHING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 Just now, oowee said: This is exactly the issue with Brexit. We see the problem as a problem with the other side. I am sure neither side would have wanted the conflict knowing the reality of what would preside. We need to leave the EU because It's not in the UK's interest to live under a EU jackboot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, oowee said: This is exactly the issue with Brexit. We see the problem as a problem with the other side. I am sure neither side would have wanted the conflict knowing the reality of what would preside. I disagree , all conflicts throughout history have been terrible in loss of life and material, never stops the next one, or the one after. After WW1 , the war to end all wars , barely 20 years passed before they were at it again, the very same combatants. Edited July 19, 2019 by Rewulf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 14 minutes ago, panoma1 said: We need to leave the EU because It's not in the UK's interest to live under a EU jackboot! Would that be the jack boot setting the rules on Kippers? 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, oowee said: Would that be the jack boot setting the rules on Kippers? 🤣 No itll be the same jackboot that created itself to rule Europe. Centralised in the same country that produced a regime to rule Europe 75 years ago. But they tell US we are the nationalists and the fascists ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: If a second vote returned a leave outcome with the specifics defined I really don’t see how anyone could justifiably try to prevent it. If an impasse on no deal occurs in Parliament, which is likely, then would a public vote between no deal Brexit and Remain be splitting the leave vote in your opinion? 4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: If a second vote returned a leave outcome with the specifics defined I really don’t see how anyone could justifiably try to prevent it. If an impasse on no deal occurs in Parliament, which is likely, then would a public vote between no deal Brexit and Remain be splitting the leave vote in your opinion? " specifics defined" Who do you suggest defines these specifics? Remainers? 4 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: If there was another vote (and there should not be) - three things need to be taken into consideration. First - that the leave/remain question has already been answered. That answer was a 'leave'. (And I in fact voted remain, but accept the answer) Second - the May deal has failed three times - and is effectively dead (mainly because of the 'backstop'.) Third - the choice is leave now (31st October) with 'no deal' - or try and leave later with a 'renegotiated' deal (assuming we can get an extension yet again - and that negotiations can be reopened). and with NO DEAL as the fall back option! 58 minutes ago, Retsdon said: In 1914, if you'd asked the electorate if they wanted a war with Germany you'd have had a resounding yes vote. If you'd asked them if they still wanted the war at a cost of a million dead young men the answer might have been different. But this is NOT a war with Germany, but an attempt to be a free, sovereign nation once again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 28 minutes ago, oowee said: Would that be the jack boot setting the rules on Kippers? 🤣 Foolish remark..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 36 minutes ago, pinfireman said: But this is NOT a war with Germany, but an attempt to be a free, sovereign nation once again! Of course it's not a war. I just used the hypothetical example to try and illustrate that while we might desire something, acting on it needs to be balanced against potential negative consequences. There's something else too. Someone up the thread said that when a negotiating fails you walk away, and of course under normal circumstances that's what you do if you can't get your preferred outcome. But 'walking away' really means abandoning the negotiation process to stay with the status quo ante. Nothing changes. 'Walking away' from membership of probably the richest trade bloc on the planet without any idea of where you are going is most certainly not synonymous with staying with the status quo ante. Everything changes. It's Captain Oates stuff. And that's why we're at an impasse. Staying with the status quo, 'walking away' in normal circumstances, means staying in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Retsdon said: In 1914, if you'd asked the electorate if they wanted a war with Germany you'd have had a resounding yes vote. If you'd asked them if they still wanted the war at a cost of a million dead young men the answer might have been different. I'm so glad that people with an attitude like yours were few and far between during both Wars, People volunteered in droves for both wars, knowing full well what the potential cost could be, and they joined anyway. The British would've rather have been wiped off the face of the Earth than submit to German rule IMHO. I think it would have been another referendum, where the result would have surprised you!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 10 minutes ago, Retsdon said: There's something else too. Someone up the thread said that when a negotiating fails you walk away, and of course under normal circumstances that's what you do if you can't get your preferred outcome. But 'walking away' really means abandoning the negotiation process to stay with the status quo ante. Nothing changes. I suppose when you get your car insurance quote for the next year and its twice what it was, after negotiations , you get no concessions ? You WALK AWAY , you dont stay with them do you ?! 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 16 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Of course it's not a war. I just used the hypothetical example to try and illustrate that while we might desire something, acting on it needs to be balanced against potential negative consequences. There's something else too. Someone up the thread said that when a negotiating fails you walk away, and of course under normal circumstances that's what you do if you can't get your preferred outcome. But 'walking away' really means abandoning the negotiation process to stay with the status quo ante. Nothing changes. 'Walking away' from membership of probably the richest trade bloc on the planet without any idea of where you are going is most certainly not synonymous with staying with the status quo ante. Everything changes. It's Captain Oates stuff. And that's why we're at an impasse. Staying with the status quo, 'walking away' in normal circumstances, means staying in the EU. If you can't get what you want out of a relationship you leave that relationship! If the other side refuse to negotiate an acceptable/amicable separation, do you stay in that relationship? Surely your only option, if you wish to honour the decision to leave, is to just walk away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 9 minutes ago, panoma1 said: If the other side refuse to negotiate an acceptable/amicable separation...... I'm genuinely curious. What is it exactly that you want the EU to do/concede that would, in your view, make the separation amicable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, Retsdon said: I'm genuinely curious. What is it exactly that you want the EU to do/concede that would, in your view, make the separation amicable? Full and unconditional SURRENDER ! 😂 How about an each way free trade deal for starters, and no customs checks, regulatory alignment ~(which we already have) about a quarter of the 'divorce bill' in return for a couple of billion annual payment for admin and pensions. There, wasnt hard was it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Retsdon said: I'm genuinely curious. What is it exactly that you want the EU to do/concede that would, in your view, make the separation amicable? We elect representatives to establish that!....obviously it would not be a BRINO together with terms that did not disadvantage the UK! Edited July 19, 2019 by panoma1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Rewulf said: regulatory alignment ~(which we already have) So in the future when new standards are set, we align to their standards or they align to ours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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