BREXIT

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

3.5 years later and the Cons are still trying to neutralise the Brexit Party, the referendum happened because of this threat and the Cons leadership appear ready to take us out on no deal for the same reasons. 

My enemies enemy is my friend ect...

But its not even like that, no deal is the only option , because the EU and parliament , MADE  it the only option.
The BP have just rolled up to the battle ground to make sure we get out , one way or another, and if no deal is the only option, then thats that.
They have the support*, and financial backing to make a big dent in labour , and the cons if necessary.
AND the grace to withdraw and disband if they are not needed.

*If you doubt their electoral support, cast your mind back to the EU elections.

[JohnfromUK]

18 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Cons are still trying to neutralise the Brexit Party, the referendum happened because of this threat and the Cons leadership appear ready to take us out on no deal for the same reasons.

Explanation: There is a lot of support (polite way of saying votes) for Brexit.  It really is that simple!

[Newbie to this]

26 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

3.5 years later and the Cons are still trying to neutralise the Brexit Party, the referendum happened because of this threat and the Cons leadership appear ready to take us out on no deal for the same reasons. 

And it still doesn't change the result of that very referendum!

We were given a choice (which I'm glad about, regardless of the reasoning behind it) and the majority decided to leave.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Raja Clavata]

19 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

My enemies enemy is my friend ect...

But its not even like that, no deal is the only option , because the EU and parliament , MADE  it the only option.
The BP have just rolled up to the battle ground to make sure we get out , one way or another, and if no deal is the only option, then thats that.
They have the support*, and financial backing to make a big dent in labour , and the cons if necessary.
AND the grace to withdraw and disband if they are not needed.

*If you doubt their electoral support, cast your mind back to the EU elections.

But only about a third of the UK population appear to want no deal, do you not see the problem!?

7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Explanation: There is a lot of support (polite way of saying votes) for Brexit.  It really is that simple!

There is also a lot of support for avoiding no deal. Equally simple.

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

And it still doesn't change the result of that very referendum!

We were given a choice (which I'm glad about, regardless of the reasoning behind it) and the majority decided to leave.

Nobody is contesting that, you seem to be arguing with yourself this laboured (very) point.

PS - we also heard you the fifth time that it's not all about trade 😛

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

There is also a lot of support for avoiding no deal. Equally simple

That may be so in Parliament.  In the more rural circles I inhabit the vast majority want it done - deal or no deal.

[Newbie to this]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Nobody is contesting that, you seem to be arguing with yourself this laboured (very) point.

PS - we also heard you the fifth time that it's not all about trade 😛

Your forgetting the countless time I've had to mention that an FTA agreement was offered and turned down!!!

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Explanation: There is a lot of support (polite way of saying votes) for Brexit.  It really is that simple!

It is simple, but remain try to neutralise the obvious majority decision by giving it the ' You didnt know what you were voting for' or 'the referendum was ill advised, without specifying type of Brexit'
Even now they use the 'vote is split' excuse to try to justify even more delays, hoping there will be a mass change of mind 🙄

Thats why I say, bring it on , have a general election, see how the country votes, no one can argue with that.

But THEN they say, 'Oh no , thats a trick, youll just leave while we are waiting' which is BS talk for 'Thats a trick , cos you know we will lose..badly'
They are not shy of passing motions to block, delay and subvert parliament , why didnt they pass a motion to confirm an election date ?

Fact is they dont want an election , or a second ref, they just want to stop Brexit, without recourse to the people, YES , THEY are that stupid !
Well Im sorry but thats not happening , because WE are not that stupid.

[Raja Clavata]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

That may be so in Parliament.  In the more rural circles I inhabit the vast majority want it done - deal or no deal.

I would suggest not just parliament and I'm sure you are aware the mood in and around London is very different.

For me, the solution to the problem the UK has with the EU was not to leave it but for a strong government to drive growth throughout the country to increase the number of people who benefit from our membership and wider effects of globalisation. Instead we have a government primarily driven by self preservation with support from some very wealthy elites who will undoubtedly benefit from Brexit (or who are at least immune from the issues it will bring).

2 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Your forgetting the countless time I've had to mention that an FTA agreement was offered and turned down!!!

So if it's not all about trade then the fact that a FTA offer was declined is less important than if it was all about. 

Yes it's reported that is / was the case but I don't really see what your point is. I think just about everyone acknowledges that the May govt made a complete has of it.

Please spell out you point clearly for us "simple Remainer types"...

[Newbie to this]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

to increase the number of people who benefit from our membership

The EU does a good job of this already and are already talking of adding more!

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

But only about a third of the UK population appear to want no deal, do you not see the problem!?

There is also a lot of support for avoiding no deal. Equally simple.

Nobody is contesting that, you seem to be arguing with yourself this laboured (very) point.

😛

 

 

Is there majority support for remaining ?

The leavers who dont support no deal ? What if it came to a choice between remain and no deal, why isnt that a poll option ?

Personally ,I would prefer a deal, but not a -£40 bn deal, or one where we give NI away !
I have done enough research , reading and discussing , here and elsewhere to come to the conclusion, that no deal is the ONLY way to get a deal.

To think otherwise is a fools errand .

[Raja Clavata]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

It is simple, but remain try to neutralise the obvious majority decision by giving it the ' You didnt know what you were voting for' or 'the referendum was ill advised, without specifying type of Brexit'
Even now they use the 'vote is split' excuse to try to justify even more delays, hoping there will be a mass change of mind 🙄

Thats why I say, bring it on , have a general election, see how the country votes, no one can argue with that.

But THEN they say, 'Oh no , thats a trick, youll just leave while we are waiting' which is BS talk for 'Thats a trick , cos you know we will lose..badly'
They are not shy of passing motions to block, delay and subvert parliament , why didnt they pass a motion to confirm an election date ?

Fact is they dont want an election , or a second ref, they just want to stop Brexit, without recourse to the people, YES , THEY are that stupid !
Well Im sorry but thats not happening , because WE are not that stupid.

I agree that won't stop Brexit and yes that position is stupid. I'll avoid a comment on us being stupid enough to vote for Brexit in the first place (stupid does not adequately describe the reasons).

3 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

The EU does a good job of this already and are already talking of adding more!

Quote out of context, but anyhow. Yes perhaps they, the EU, do but that should be part of their mission just like it should be the mission of the UK govt to do that for the masses in the UK.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

I agree that won't stop Brexit and yes that position is stupid. I'll avoid a comment on us being stupid enough to vote for Brexit in the first place (stupid does not adequately describe the reasons).

No , really stupid would be voting in a labour government, at this moment in time.
And rest assured , that wont happen , because we arent that stupid.

[Newbie to this]

5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

So if it's not all about trade then the fact that a FTA offer was declined is less important than if it was all about. 

Yes it's reported that is / was the case but I don't really see what your point is. I think just about everyone acknowledges that the May govt made a complete has of it.

Please spell out you point clearly for us "simple Remainer types".

Quite simply a deal that would have been acceptable to most was offered, but the remainer PM May turned it down, instead opting for Their/Her closer alignment deal which is not acceptable to anyone.

People keep saying that a deal is impossible, but it was offered. It's become impossible because the EU and our remainer parliament are holding on to the hope that it can be stopped.

Personally I'd prefer a deal but it is not essential! Again something I have mentioned many times?

[Raja Clavata]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Is there majority support for remaining ?

The leavers who dont support no deal ? What if it came to a choice between remain and no deal, why isnt that a poll option ?

Personally ,I would prefer a deal, but not a -£40 bn deal, or one where we give NI away !
I have done enough research , reading and discussing , here and elsewhere to come to the conclusion, that no deal is the ONLY way to get a deal.

To think otherwise is a fools errand .

There is only one way to find out where the majority support lies.

I was wondering the same thing about more refined scenarios in polls and trust me, it's frustrating for both sides I believe.

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

No , really stupid would be voting in a labour government, at this moment in time.
And rest assured , that wont happen , because we arent that stupid.

I concur 100%.

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I would suggest not just parliament and I'm sure you are aware the mood in and around London is very different.

Cant think why that would be can you ?

Oh hang on ,is it because over half of London wasnt born in the UK ?
Or vast areas of London live on state benefits in labour strongholds ?

Seriously, anyone with even the most tenuous connection to another country tends to vote a certain way, especially when that side tells you the other is made up of xenophobes and racists.
No matter how untrue that may be.

[Raja Clavata]

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

Quite simply a deal that would have been acceptable to most was offered, but the remainer PM May turned it down, instead opting for Their/Her closer alignment deal which is not acceptable to anyone.

People keep saying that a deal is impossible, but it was offered. It's become impossible because the EU and our remainer parliament are holding on to the hope that it can be stopped.

Personally I'd prefer a deal but it is not essential! Again something I have mentioned many times?

A deal isn't impossible and it's the logical thing to strive for, but Boris being Boris nailed himself to the mast and make ridiculous statements that make it really hard for him to back down on. Remember it was one of the key points in his Con leadership campaign.

[JohnfromUK]

17 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm sure you are aware the mood in and around London is very different

I am - but London has different views on many things - and a great many people in London are not UK voters.  Most of the UK would actually prefer London wasn't even there.  Just look at the state it is in - streets blocked off by feral protesters, mayor who tacitly supports them, police powerless.  It has become a dump frankly.

Edited October 10, 2019 by JohnfromUK

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

There is only one way to find out where the majority support lies.

Of course , soooooooo, shall we have a GE ?? Says BJ.
Oh no , cant do that labour says, we might lose !

We want a 2nd Ref !
Well vote for one then....Err , not right now , we might lose again, then we cant even go best of 3 ! 

[Raja Clavata]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I am - but London has different views on many things - and a great many people in London and not UK voters.  Most of the UK would actually prefer London wasn't even there.  Just look at the state it is in - streets blocked off by feral protesters, mayor who tacitly supports them, police powerless.  It has become a dump frankly.

Why single out London. I lived in Coventry for a year and have traveled to many UK cities through work - most inner cities are dumps in places and London is by far not the worst.

I'm really not sure about most of the UK wishing London wasn't there at all. Maybe on PW but not most of the UK.

[Newbie to this]

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Quote out of context, but anyhow. Yes perhaps they, the EU, do but that should be part of their mission just like it should be the mission of the UK govt to do that for the masses in the UK.

Absolutely it was out of context, but still true none the less. 

It's also one on the reasons many voted to leave. why should the UK tax payer, pay for others in the EU? 

If the EU was a level playing field, with all members pulling their weight, then maybe the outcome would have been different. How can 1 member get all the benefits of trade and large sums of other member's money, while others have to pay for the same benefits?

[Raja Clavata]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Of course , soooooooo, shall we have a GE ?? Says BJ.
Oh no , cant do that labour says, we might lose !

We want a 2nd Ref !
Well vote for one then....Err , not right now , we might lose again, then we cant even go best of 3 ! 

I agree it's ridiculous.

[Newbie to this]

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

A deal isn't impossible and it's the logical thing to strive for, but Boris being Boris nailed himself to the mast and make ridiculous statements that make it really hard for him to back down on. Remember it was one of the key points in his Con leadership campaign.

So why is the FTA that was offered, not being offered again?

Why are they clinging on to Their/May's dead treaty?

Edited October 10, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Raja Clavata]

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

Absolutely it was out of context, but still true none the less. 

It's also one on the reasons many voted to leave. why should the UK tax payer, pay for others in the EU? 

If the EU was a level playing field, with all members pulling their weight, then maybe the outcome would have been different. How can 1 member get all the benefits of trade and large sums of other member's money, while others have to pay for the same benefits?

If you look at our economy and GDP the majority of us should be doing better than we are but that isn't a failing of the EU it's a failing of our government, society and culture. As I have said before if and when we get out of the EU to whom do we point the finger at when things don't go as well as they should / we were promised they would?

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

So why is the FTA that was offered, not being offered again?

Why are they clinging on to Their/May's dead treaty?

Dunno, do you?

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

If you look at our economy and GDP the majority of us should be doing better than we are but that isn't a failing of the EU it's a failing of our government, society and culture. As I have said before if and when we get out of the EU to whom do we point the finger at when things don't go as well as they should / we were promised they would?

I dont agree, most EUropean economies arent doing any good either, have they all got rubbish governments, or is the common denominator they are all EU members ?

The second part is simple , we point the finger of blame at our OWN government and deal with them accordingly.

Something a bit harder to do with the EU , no ?

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Why single out London. I lived in Coventry for a year and have traveled to many UK cities through work - most inner cities are dumps in places and London is by far not the worst.

I'm really not sure about most of the UK wishing London wasn't there at all. Maybe on PW but not most of the UK.

I think London was singled out because it is very much the capital of 'Remain'.  I have lived in Birmingham - no better/no worse than London in most respects overall - but London is badly worse in some areas;

• Grossly overpriced housing
• Grossly overpriced in other areas
• Dreadful commuting (poor public transport, overcrowding and expensive).
• Impossibly expensive to get about in a normal 'country type' car (low emissions zones taxes, congestion  taxes)

Many people I know who have to live in London (for work reasons) do so reluctantly - and if they are wealthy enough - keep a country property as well to escape at weekends.  A lot have left when the opportunity arrived (despite taking a salary cut) simply because they loathed the dump it has become.  Yes it has some of the worlds best museums and some great tourist traps - but most of them are now so overcrowded you have to queue for hours to visit (things like the Cabinet War Rooms etc.)

I used to like the occasional visit to London (and have relatives there), but I loathe going now and they have their weekend country retreat - and I visit them there now instead.