andrewluke Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 12 minutes ago, lancer425 said: 28 gram of 7s will be ok squirels , on the corvids and if you want a bit more range just jump up to around 4s. 32 gram if you think you must but i just choke it bdown and carry on more often than not. Get out there learn how to use steel, its good. and the info filtering around though well meaning 20 years ago is pretty outdated today. Fact is there are no horror stories with steel, it pure fictional propaganda, by an ever dwindling hardcore of Lead advocates who frankly just do not know any better. Steel and the other non Leads work, get with the plan if your able to on your grounds even with plaswads until the bios become more readily available. You will be more than happy with steel, many use steel anyway for pigeons and vermin just because they use it and like it from wildfowling. i don't think these are heavy enough from what i've been told, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 Just now, andrewluke said: i don't think these are heavy enough from what i've been told, Look go but some super steel its everywhere, if you want range ie passing shots 35 or more just up to 32 gram of say 4s. but into decoys in the 20s early 30s you will be just fine. i shoot crows regular with a factory gamembore super steel 20g load 21 gram of 5s or 4s. i kill geese with 3s in range. You might need a decent choke but again not necessarily, get to it look at it as a challenge not a terrible restriction, It is just no such thing. Steel is just different. watch that old raster steel shot 1980s video and the dove video il link them in this post for you. The research here is impresive, they have tried to be accurate as they could and its well compared and thought out re performance. we need some research like this done. Ps go to the site download the sheet too its interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 15 minutes ago, andrewluke said: i don't think these are heavy enough from what i've been told, mate here’s the so called myth for you i was shot with lead and used steel it does the job just slightly less range anyone who doubts this is free to find a irate farmer but the pain and claret is not worth it trust me they do not have the same range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Look go but some super steel its everywhere, if you want range ie passing shots 35 or more just up to 32 gram of say 4s. but into decoys in the 20s early 30s you will be just fine. i shoot crows regular with a factory gamembore super steel 20g load 21 gram of 5s or 4s. i kill geese with 3s in range. You might need a decent choke but again not necessarily, get to it look at it as a challenge not a terrible restriction, It is just no such thing. Steel is just different. watch that old raster steel shot 1980s video and the dove video il link them in this post for you. others are not so optimistic as you!, what i said about "I find a 32g or a 34g load in 3s perfect for the squirrels and more than capable of sorting the occasional carrion crow too." came from an experienced shooter,should i not listen to this advice?, Edited March 24, 2020 by andrewluke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Steel is not currently the main shot type. When lead use declines, Steel prices will become lower its like any other commodity. Ammo firms have to get competitive and will do, the steel ammo in the states is much lower because its more in demand. Demand here rises the price will have to fall, or other firms will jump in undercutting. Ok you dont want to hear about reloading but Indi cast at £40+ vat for 28 kilo S7 which is a big 6 will keep steel prices down. . this conflicts with a discussion you had with me. Edited March 24, 2020 by Newbie to this Photo added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, andrewluke said: others are not so optomistic as you!, what i said about "I find a 32g or a 34g load in 3s perfect for the squirrels and more than capable of sorting the occasional carrion crow too." came from an experienced shooter I am not optimistic i dont do optimism i do facts. Fact is you don’t need 34 gram or even a 32 gram load to humanely dispatch squirels or the occasional crow. Ok you can not be over gunned, but its just not a pre requisite needed to get the job done properly. either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 9 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: this conflicts with a discussion you had with me. OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, lancer425 said: OK Edited March 24, 2020 by Newbie to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 1 minute ago, lancer425 said: I am not optimistic i dont do optimism i do facts. Fact is you don’t need 34 gram or even a 32 gram load to humanely dispatch squirels or the occasional crow. Ok you can not be over gunned, but its just not a pre requisite needed to get the job done properly. either. well this is what what a BASC employee said ; "I first started using steel for the same reason as most: because I had to if I wanted to continue going wildfowling or duck flighting. In recent years, I have to say that factory-made steel shot has improved beyond recognition – so much so that I have no hesitation using it for other forms of shooting too. I now use it exclusively for all my squirrel control, and as it patterns tighter than lead, I can get away with using a lighter load with large pellets and still feel like I’m throwing a dinner plate at my quarry rather than a dustbin lid. I find a 32g or a 34g load in 3s perfect for the squirrels and more than capable of sorting the occasional carrion crow too." most 34g steel are superior steel proof cant be used in most sxs game guns Should we believe everything we are told by BASC or their employees https://basc.org.uk/steel---more-than-a-glance---innis-finlay/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Newbie to this said: Not in the short term, wildfowlers will have to pay more for card cup and bio wads than they currently do with typical plaswad ammo, BUT ! After just a little research re loaders are already seeing a way through. The cartridge companies will eventually be dropping prices, or not sell ammo. its all new at the moment, and new cost money. Things will get better. Once they start buying bigger stocks of steel their discount will reflect in t5he prices. but if this fillters back to the shooter as much as it should, will need forign ammo makers to bring this to fruition. UK factories are super greedy IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 6 minutes ago, andrewluke said: well this is what what a BASC employee said ; "I first started using steel for the same reason as most: because I had to if I wanted to continue going wildfowling or duck flighting. In recent years, I have to say that factory-made steel shot has improved beyond recognition – so much so that I have no hesitation using it for other forms of shooting too. I now use it exclusively for all my squirrel control, and as it patterns tighter than lead, I can get away with using a lighter load with large pellets and still feel like I’m throwing a dinner plate at my quarry rather than a dustbin lid. I find a 32g or a 34g load in 3s perfect for the squirrels and more than capable of sorting the occasional carrion crow too." most 34g steel are superior steel proof cant be used in most sxs game guns Should we believe everything we are told by BASC or their employees https://basc.org.uk/steel---more-than-a-glance---innis-finlay/ How is that different to me? I chose a lighter load and i probably run more choke than him, but basically we are about identical in opinion. I see no reason for your reference to that text whatsoever. If your killing your killing, Smaller steel will work, i have no doubt about that, and for a 28 gram 12ga load of number 7 steel at 1450fps through a decent patterning gun/ choke i would be more than happy to take on typical squirel duty with complete confidence that load and me can get the job done cleanly and humane. What more is there to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Not in the short term, wildfowlers will have to pay more for card cup and bio wads than they currently do with typical plaswad ammo, BUT ! After just a little research re loaders are already seeing a way through. The cartridge companies will eventually be dropping prices, or not sell ammo. its all new at the moment, and new cost money. Things will get better. Once they start buying bigger stocks of steel their discount will reflect in t5he prices. but if this fillters back to the shooter as much as it should, will need forign ammo makers to bring this to fruition. UK factories are super greedy IMO. So when I wasn't interested in "the facts", I was in fact, maybe talking facts according to you now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 7 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: So when I wasn't interested in "the facts", I was in fact, maybe talking facts according to you now I do not have a crystal ball or know a sooth sayer. Anything in the future has some grounds for guesswork, i nean if we think back just 6 nmonths could we ever have envisaged we would be in the current state we are in right now. NO of course we couldnt and my case in point rests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 8 minutes ago, lancer425 said: How is that different to me? I chose a lighter load and i probably run more choke than him, but basically we are about identical in opinion. I see no reason for your reference to that text whatsoever. If your killing your killing, Smaller steel will work, i have no doubt about that, and for a 28 gram 12ga load of number 7 steel at 1450fps through a decent patterning gun/ choke i would be more than happy to take on typical squirel duty with complete confidence that load and me can get the job done cleanly and humane. What more is there to know. like i said previously,you have always got some sort of answer! you could have said the Basc guy is talking bull**** and i would have agreed with you 100%,sorry but you missed your opportuntity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 Just now, andrewluke said: like i said previously,you have always got some sort of answer! you could have said the Basc guy is talking ******** and i would have agreed with you 100%,sorry but you missed your opportuntity But he isnt is he, he just went about doing the same job as me just a slightly different way with a more open choke, same job just different approach. He is right and so am i. He has a car on a recovery truck, i have a brian james on a 4x4 same job different way of moving a car. both right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, lancer425 said: I do not have a crystal ball or know a sooth sayer. Anything in the future has some grounds for guesswork, i nean if we think back just 6 nmonths could we ever have envisaged we would be in the current state we are in right now. NO of course we couldnt and my case in point rests. OK 🤷♂️ So was it both of us not interested in "the facts" Edited March 24, 2020 by Newbie to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, lancer425 said: But he isnt is he, he just went about doing the same job as me just a slightly different way with a more open choke, same job just different approach. He is right and so am i. He has a car on a recovery truck, i have a brian james on a 4x4 same job different way of moving a car. both right. like i said,always got some sort of answer! how can the BASC guy say that a certain cartridge is ok for the occassional crow and that was 34g steel,if it's ok for 1 crow surely it would be ok for more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted March 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, andrewluke said: like i said,always got some sort of answer! how can the BASC guy say that a certain cartridge is ok for the occassional crow and that was 34g steel,if it's ok for 1 crow surely it would be ok for more? Of course i have got an answer its not exactly cancer research this is it, We are talking about SHOTGUNNING. Steel is not like a unknown shot type. His choice of 34 gram blah blah blah is all good. I would go with that . if hes using a mod choke or wants a bit more clout then fine. I like a lot more choke but that’s not everybody’s approach to steel. As i said were exactly on the same page him and me get over this. And anyway, you just toddle along back a few posts and watch those two videos i posted for you. NOW you toddle off watch them all right through. Then you might have some real questions you genuinely need answering. The dove research is good its well thought out. and i happen to think pretty accurate data drawn from it. But you get on with that and promise to come out and play latter. Good lad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Of course i have got an answer its not exactly cancer research this is it, We are talking about SHOTGUNNING. Steel is not like a unknown shot type. His choice of 34 gram blah blah blah is all good. I would go with that . if hes using a mod choke or wants a bit more clout then fine. I like a lot more choke but that’s not everybody’s approach to steel. As i said were exactly on the same page him and me get over this. And anyway, you just toddle along back a few posts and watch those two videos i posted for you. NOW you toddle off watch them all right through. Then you might have some real questions you genuinely need answering. The dove research is good its well thought out. and i happen to think pretty accurate data drawn from it. But you get on with that and promise to come out and play latter. Good lad. ******,that was going to be my next question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrowningB7 Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 Until the ECHA produce their report we don't know anything coming our way. Considering on their website they have already suggested a date of late 2022 for a restriction on lead use before any conclusions have actually been drawn, leads me to wonder if an unbiased and fair examination going into this process could be called into question (remains to be seen). When the report is produced we can then look and see how shooting contributes to the concerns of lead use, discrediting any evidence that includes fishing weights into figures, statistics etc. As it is calling on member states to contribute to the study, our representatives should be calling for a fair scientific test and contribute any evidence they may have. If we are not part of this process anymore due to Brexit, the final report will provide nothing more then valuable toilet paper to us. As a nation with some of the highest shooting etiquette and self-regulation (e.g. Restricted shooting when weather is putting stress on wildfowl and game) we should be able to look into the issue ourselves and conclude our own evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 The ECHA may not be about much longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrowningB7 Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Newbie to this said: The ECHA may not be about much longer. Really? How come Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, BrowningB7 said: Really? How come From what I have been reading online the EU is crumbling. With France and Germany refusing to send Italy supplies it has fallen to Russia to fill the gap. Rumours coming from Italy are screw the EU! And with the ECHA being an EU institution, it stands to reason that if the EU goes so does it. Edited March 24, 2020 by Newbie to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrowningB7 Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 18 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: From what I have been reading online the EU is crumbling. With France and Germany refusing to send Italy supplies it has fallen to Russia to fill the gap. Rumours coming from Italy are screw the EU! And with the ECHA being an EU institution, it stands to reason that if the EU goes so does it. I would be supprised if the French hunters allowed anymore restrictions on their shooting. My dad has lived there the past two years and apparently they run things, historical rights allowing to hunt on any land they deem fit. Local police and majors side with them and not the landowners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry2016 Posted March 24, 2020 Report Share Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, andrewluke said: what would you have done if the no voluntary ban??,if BASC never mentioned it you would have been quite happy to keep eating toxic game and poisoning birds! its not about BASC banning it. 1, There is no ban therefore I do not have to do anything if i choose not too. 2, 9 organisation wrote a statement stating that now is the time for change and that alternatives are available not BASC. Why would I want to continue to do things that may have a negative impact on me, my children and the wildlife when there is an effective alternative that poses none of these risks? in truth the majority of shooters I have spoken to regarding this agree its the right thing to do. Yes there are a handful that will argue that lead is not toxic, steel is no good and we should not change anything.. to those I say good luck, you do not have to change ... yet... but in time you will.. and you will be behind the curve.. I on the other hand will be going about my shooting as I always have, putting food on the table and protecting crops and live stock.. you know what they say .. if you don't like it... stop ... Edited March 24, 2020 by Terry2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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