Gordon R Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 Sedwill had ideas above his station. Theresa May allegedly hung on his every word - however unwise. His comment to Gavin Williamson "Don’t underestimate how vindictive I can be." - showed him to be a nasty bully and he can't complain when it happens to him. Cranfield - Bit of a sweeping statement. I prefer to think of "Lions led by donkeys".😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 24 minutes ago, Cranfield said: ..........I have never met a civil servant at any level that I would employ. How very true. Includes most politicians too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 4 hours ago, 12gauge82 said: Got to be honest, I can't be bothered to waste too much time on this one, I'm rather busy at the moment. But in a nut shell, the guy massively overstepped his remit and gambled his career on helping to manipulate us remaining in the EU, or at least a deal so close it'd be like we'd never left. That is outside of how he should be behaving in that position and Cummings has yet again won the day, Sedwill now needs to go and he's only himself to blame. On a bit of a tangent, I'm starting to have a bit of respect for Cummings, I've never really liked him and thought he was a bit of a odd moron, but every time he's been taken on, he makes little noise and just when you think he's finished, like a magician, he pulls something from up his sleeve and comes out on top, like his opponents, I've underestimated him. Agh I see now. Helping Theresa deliver the deal that she requested. Doing the job requested by his political master rather than playing a political game and ignoring her wishes was his downfall. nothing to do with outing a Tory favourite, as a traitor to the UK. 3 hours ago, Cranfield said: The Civil service remains one of the few "jobs for life" employment sectors. Their employee benefits are above the norm, its almost impossible to sack anyone and the compensation levels are mind blowing. Most of them would be unemployable in similar commercial/industrial environments and this is true of every level. The impact of this lack of quality and commitment becomes a major problem in top and middle lines of management. I think Governments should man these areas with elected (at the top) and nominated (in the middle) personnel. They would then have more chance of their policies being progressed efficiently. Anyone who has run a company knows that without support from these levels, the job is much more difficult and in some cases impossible. I have never met a civil servant at any level that I would employ. No doubt you did not meet the very many senior civil servants that go onto succesful carears in the private sector. Maybe we should pay them more to get the higher quality that you suggest? You suggest elected at the top and nominated in the middle. Rather like the system that we have in place now with ministers, and proffessional advisers. The CS are more than happy to progress policy efficiently, nothing would make their job easier. It does however have to be credible policy. A classic is the speach by BJ today based on build build build. When asked about the implication of the policy on jobs by the Sky reporter he did not have an answer as he had not looked at the question. Comical in the extreme. No idea what this line means. In my experience very few people from the private sector would move to the CS as they would not be able to manage the level of scruitiny of the work load. These two articles may help you better understand the skill set and the roles that ex CS may take. https://www.civilserviceworld.com/in-depth/article/where-do-excivil-servants-go-when-they-leave-government https://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2015/aug/10/career-changes-civil-servants-jobs 3 hours ago, Gordon R said: Cranfield - Bit of a sweeping statement. I prefer to think of "Lions led by donkeys".😄 You know at times I have to agree with you. A donkey at the top with BJ and a whole flock of donkeys in his cabinet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 Quote A donkey at the top with BJ and a whole flock of donkeys in his cabinet. It could well apply. I have little time for most politicians, but they are elected. Sedwill's job, as a Civil Servant was to advise and then implement Government policy. He appears to have stepped outside that brief and implemented what was not policy. In short, he got a bit too big for his boots and has paid the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Gordon R said: It could well apply. I have little time for most politicians, but they are elected. Sedwill's job, as a Civil Servant was to advise and then implement Government policy. He appears to have stepped outside that brief and implemented what was not policy. In short, he got a bit too big for his boots and has paid the price. And now we have David Frost. A man with zero experience in matters of national security appointed as National Security adviser. Our country can sleep safe in the knowledge that the donkeys at the top have got us covered. I dont care what your politics or even if you are BJ's love child anyone can see that this is wrong. Edited June 30, 2020 by oowee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, oowee said: And now we have David Frost. A man with zero experience in matters of national security appointed as National Security adviser. Our country can sleep safe in the knowledge that the donkeys at the top have got us covered. I dont care what your politics or even if you are BJ's love child anyone can see that this is wrong. But, surely, he read Greats at Cambridge - all the preparation that a top civil servant needs. Sorry, no, I just looked him up. Oxford and medieval French and medieval History Oh well! Edited June 30, 2020 by amateur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, amateur said: But, surely, he read Greats at Cambridge - all the preparation that a top civil servant needs. Sorry, no, I just looked him up. Oxford and medieval French and medieval History Oh well! Whatever he read at college just proves he is a clever man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 11 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Whatever he read at college just proves he is a clever man. I don't subscribe to the philosophy that studying an obscure subject in depth necessarily equips you to problem-solve, but we will see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 9 minutes ago, amateur said: I don't subscribe to the philosophy that studying an obscure subject in depth necessarily equips you to problem-solve, but we will see. Fair enough, I would suggest it would mean you can cope with a lot of information and categorise things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 5 hours ago, oowee said: Agh I see now. Helping Theresa deliver the deal that she requested. Doing the job requested by his political master rather than playing a political game and ignoring her wishes was his downfall. nothing to do with outing a Tory favourite, as a traitor to the UK. No, allegedly attempting to help negotiate an extension whilst Boris and Cumming were laid low by Covid 19. I don't have any details but that was the rumour flying about. May is long gone and his job now has nothing to do with her wishes. Or at least shouldn't have. If he had been doing the job he was tasked with by his political master (Boris) he might not have lost his position. We've all seen Yes Minister and we all know that the C.S. regards itself as the true leader of the country. It seems that Sedwill was no Sir Humphrey and now he is paying the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 23 minutes ago, Mr_Nobody said: No, allegedly attempting to help negotiate an extension whilst Boris and Cumming were laid low by Covid 19. I don't have any details but that was the rumour flying about. May is long gone and his job now has nothing to do with her wishes. Or at least shouldn't have. If he had been doing the job he was tasked with by his political master (Boris) he might not have lost his position. We've all seen Yes Minister and we all know that the C.S. regards itself as the true leader of the country. It seems that Sedwill was no Sir Humphrey and now he is paying the price. You have seen no evidence that he was trying for an extension . You are happy to believe an apparent rumour flying about (somewhere) that this must have happened backedup by a British comedy show. Rejecting the fact that a CS would have no powers to be able to deliver a brexit extension even if they wanted to. Such powers lie with ministers not servants. At the same time the claim's made in 2019 that he would have to go when Boris or Gove became President because he had upset the Tory party with his exposure of the Tory national security traitor Williamson, you find unbelievable. I can see how that makes sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 (edited) 45 minutes ago, oowee said: You have seen no evidence that he was trying for an extension . You are happy to believe an apparent rumour flying about (somewhere) that this must have happened backedup by a British comedy show. Rejecting the fact that a CS would have no powers to be able to deliver a brexit extension even if they wanted to. Such powers lie with ministers not servants. At the same time the claim's made in 2019 that he would have to go when Boris or Gove became President because he had upset the Tory party with his exposure of the Tory national security traitor Williamson, you find unbelievable. I can see how that makes sense As I said "Allegedly". Of course individually he couldn't deliver an extension but we all saw last year the lengths some MPs were willing to go to to stop us leaving the EU. It's not particularly difficult to imagine that plotting was going on behind closed doors that high level civil servants were involved in. Fortunately Boris was smart enough to put our leaving into law or I dare say much more may have been attempted. My reference to Yes Minister was simply pointing out that the CS apparently likes to stop governments following through on plans because the CS doesn't like them. Maggie herself said the show was remarkably accurate. Hardly surprising seeing as an anonymous adviser to the show was a high ranking civil servant. We know that the CS is largely anti Brexit so again it's not difficult to believe they have been doing their best to cause trouble or nudge policy in a direction that suits them. We don't have a President, and I made no mention of Williamson and truthfully have no idea about what he may or may not have done. That story either bypassed me or I've forgotten about it. It seems Mr Sedwill is a fan of YM himself. https://order-order.com/2020/03/10/mark-sedwill-quotes-yes-minister-committee-questioning/ Edited June 30, 2020 by Danger-Mouse Added stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 8 hours ago, oowee said: Agh I see now. Helping Theresa deliver the deal that she requested. Doing the job requested by his political master rather than playing a political game and ignoring her wishes was his downfall. nothing to do with outing a Tory favourite, as a traitor to the UK. No doubt you did not meet the very many senior civil servants that go onto succesful carears in the private sector. Maybe we should pay them more to get the higher quality that you suggest? You suggest elected at the top and nominated in the middle. Rather like the system that we have in place now with ministers, and proffessional advisers. The CS are more than happy to progress policy efficiently, nothing would make their job easier. It does however have to be credible policy. A classic is the speach by BJ today based on build build build. When asked about the implication of the policy on jobs by the Sky reporter he did not have an answer as he had not looked at the question. Comical in the extreme. No idea what this line means. In my experience very few people from the private sector would move to the CS as they would not be able to manage the level of scruitiny of the work load. These two articles may help you better understand the skill set and the roles that ex CS may take. https://www.civilserviceworld.com/in-depth/article/where-do-excivil-servants-go-when-they-leave-government https://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2015/aug/10/career-changes-civil-servants-jobs You know at times I have to agree with you. A donkey at the top with BJ and a whole flock of donkeys in his cabinet. Mr nobody has already answered the points I was going to make in reply to this so I won't bother duplicating it again. If you can't see Sedwill took a political stance, we'll have to agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted June 30, 2020 Report Share Posted June 30, 2020 Quote You have seen no evidence that he was trying for an extension . You are happy to believe an apparent rumour flying about (somewhere) that this must have happened He is reported to have done exactly that and I don't see him denying it. If your view of him is correct, he will surely be instructing a top jockey brief as we discuss. Time will tell. Meanwhile his successor was one of those top Civil Servants, who know so much. The country is in safe hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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