28 / 410 ga no-tox loads

[bullet225ho]

Hey folks,

New to the forum from the USA.  I notice there is bans and such going on with lead on your side of the pond and much going on over here also.  I load for 28ga and 410 and have developed some no-tox loads.  I'm just curious if anyone here loads steel or heavier than lead loads on the forum? 

I mainly load for waterfowl and some steel for dove/upland shooting.  I also have some good loads in slugs for 28 and 410 for deer and pigs.  But with the bans on lead it's probably a moot point. 

 

some 410 ducks

[Modafinale]

Hi 

28/410 is not as widely used in the uk as the US .

also most people in the uk would surprisingly think that the 28/410 to small for duck shooting as we shoot duck differently to how you do so the tendency is for 12 and larger.

i shoot 28g but mainly at clays so am still using lead.

be interesting to see what non toxic loads you use.

try Folkestone engineering website they are one of the best places for 28/410 load data 

 

[rbrowning2]

We have two issue re the lead shot ban, the EU ban will/is not voluntary, the U.K. shooting organisations ban is voluntary but they also want to ban single use (plastic) non biodegradable wads.  The latter at this time means no suitable steel shot or tungsten based shot wads are available for 28ga or .410.   Leaving only very expensive bismuth shot.  Unless somebody knows different?

I load only for 28ga these days, fibre wads and lead shot.

Slugs in the U.K. require a firearms certificate rather than a shotgun certificate and the police only issue them if you can justify their use. Few are issued for use on live quarry compared to rifles, slugs are mainly used for target shooting disciplines.

 

[Walker570]

Welcome aboard.  I shoot 410 almost exclusively and have loaded some TSX which I believ is a tungsten based non toxic, funny stuff because it looks like it hase been moulded and is not perfectly round.  It killed well as long as I put the duck in the pattern.  I have also loaded and shot bismuth, some my home loads and some made by Eley over here and again if I put it in the pattern it did the job.  My own loads where 18g  and the Eley VIP factory are 16g.  I also used some boxes of the Eley bismuth on a days driven partridge, classic over the hedges shooting , fast and furious and again same deal, if I did my bit the cartridge responded positively.

Is that a side by side 410 you have there ?   Make ?   I am trying to buy a Parker Hale Midland 410 side by side hammer gun at the moment but it is 150 miles away from me and we are in lockdown and almost all gun shops are closed for business.  My present go to 410 is a Yildiz O/U which has served me well.

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Walker570

[Dave at kelton]

Not loading non toxic in the small bores so still lead in my 28. Steel is reserved for the 12. & 10 bores. The 8 bore is ITM rather than bismuth although I have used the latter.

[islandgun]

I have only used the 20 and 28 bores this year both loaded with TSS following recipes from BPi, I go out often but dont shoot many. I have been very impressed by the performance of TSS, enough to say that I expect my 12's and 10 g are a thing of the past, [unless Tungsten gets too expensive]  

Edited February 6, 2021 by islandgun

[bullet225ho]

I wasn't aware of the wad proposals...meaning no plastic wads.  Just means more to develop I reckon.  

Yes, that is a side by side 410.  It is a Yildiz Elegant A4.  We have a sporting goods chain here in the US called "Academy Sports" that is the sole distributor of Yildiz guns.  I have one in my town so I picked one up.

I'm shooting mostly a duplex of TSS and Steel shot out of the 28 and 410.  The load used in the duck hunt above was 4/8oz of #10 TSS and 1/8oz #4 steel shot.  loaded in 3" hull with TPS wad.  Load was moving around 1200fps.  

Here's a pattern from that load at 40yds.  30in circle

 

[Walker570]

Can't fault that.

[islandgun]

2 hours ago, bullet225ho said:

I wasn't aware of the wad proposals...meaning no plastic wads.  Just means more to develop I reckon.  

Yes, that is a side by side 410.  It is a Yildiz Elegant A4.  We have a sporting goods chain here in the US called "Academy Sports" that is the sole distributor of Yildiz guns.  I have one in my town so I picked one up.

I'm shooting mostly a duplex of TSS and Steel shot out of the 28 and 410.  The load used in the duck hunt above was 4/8oz of #10 TSS and 1/8oz #4 steel shot.  loaded in 3" hull with TPS wad.  Load was moving around 1200fps.  

Here's a pattern from that load at 40yds.  30in circle

 

Thanks for that. Im a beginner at this TSS stuff and only loaded it this season. [ there are others much more knowledgeable than me on here ] why the duplex ? and would you care to throw in a couple of recipes for discussion ? as said Im using a 20 and 28 g but might be persuaded to invest in a 410 if i had too 😉 ...cheers I have TSS 15

Edited February 6, 2021 by islandgun

[bullet225ho]

When you say TSS 15 do you mean Tungsten mix with a density of 15g/cm3?  

I have access and have loaded different heavier than lead shot.  I'm used to TSS only referring to 18g/cm3 dense shot.  So When I say TSS i'm talking 18g/cm3

The 15g/cm3, 13g/cm3 and then "Hevi-Shot" at 12g/cm3.   We refer the 15 and 13 as Heavy weight or HW-13, HW-15 and Hevi-shot is call just that.

in the 410 TSS and HW-15 are about he only two options that I would use.  I don't really like using HW-15 as the pellet count is down with the shot sizes I have access to.

I use the steel on top of the TSS to open the pattern up a bit quicker.  If you shoot straight TSS it patterns SUPER tight....even at range.  Now if your looking for 50-60yd kills then I say use a filler to raise the shot up and go straight TSS.  The smaller TSS will open a bit faster than the larger stuff but still holds a tighter pattern than lead or steel.

The steel slows down faster than the TSS and the TSS essentially pushes its way through the pattern.  This gets the steel on the outside edges of the pattern very quickly for close in shots...Also it fills in that magic 30" circle at 40.  If you don't use steel on top you will have all your TSS in a 20" circle at 40.  That makes hitting birds tuff.  Also,  TSS likes an open choke in most of my guns.  In 28ga I'm using an extended Cyl choke.  in 410 im using imp cyl choke.

 

a 410 loaded proper with TSS will rival any 12ga steel load available.  A 28ga with TSS will rival 2 12ga steel loads shot at the same time.    

[mchughcb]

I'm assuming the #10 is 1.8mm size? How are you finding it on ducks?

[bullet225ho]

Yes, 1.8mm size.  It's great on large ducks to 50yds.  

 

1.8mm TSS(18g/cm3) has the same penetration at 50 yds as 4.06mm steel shot if both are driven at 1300fps.  

[islandgun]

10 hours ago, bullet225ho said:

When you say TSS 15 do you mean Tungsten mix with a density of 15g/cm3?  

I have access and have loaded different heavier than lead shot.  I'm used to TSS only referring to 18g/cm3 dense shot.  So When I say TSS i'm talking 18g/cm3

The 15g/cm3, 13g/cm3 and then "Hevi-Shot" at 12g/cm3.   We refer the 15 and 13 as Heavy weight or HW-13, HW-15 and Hevi-shot is call just that.

in the 410 TSS and HW-15 are about he only two options that I would use.  I don't really like using HW-15 as the pellet count is down with the shot sizes I have access to.

I use the steel on top of the TSS to open the pattern up a bit quicker.  If you shoot straight TSS it patterns SUPER tight....even at range.  Now if your looking for 50-60yd kills then I say use a filler to raise the shot up and go straight TSS.  The smaller TSS will open a bit faster than the larger stuff but still holds a tighter pattern than lead or steel.

The steel slows down faster than the TSS and the TSS essentially pushes its way through the pattern.  This gets the steel on the outside edges of the pattern very quickly for close in shots...Also it fills in that magic 30" circle at 40.  If you don't use steel on top you will have all your TSS in a 20" circle at 40.  That makes hitting birds tuff.  Also,  TSS likes an open choke in most of my guns.  In 28ga I'm using an extended Cyl choke.  in 410 im using imp cyl choke.

 

a 410 loaded proper with TSS will rival any 12ga steel load available.  A 28ga with TSS will rival 2 12ga steel loads shot at the same time.    

Thanks again, very interesting stuff, I understood the 15 is uk 7# I will certainly be buying the 18 for patterning this summer. It looks like my 28g s/a with imp cyl would be the best choice, or perhaps the 20 o/u with steel in the second barrel   Would you have any recipes for the duplex loads ?

[wymberley]

7 hours ago, mchughcb said:

I'm assuming the #10 is 1.8mm size? How are you finding it on ducks?

I've had a guess at 400, but would be good to know - does anyone know the pellets/ounce count as I simply can't find the answer?

Many thanks

[mchughcb]

This migh

[wymberley]

48 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

This migh

I make that 509!? 

[islandgun]

This is from a thread in 2019 TSS data

http://outdoorproductguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/TSS-pellet-count-per-ounce.jpg

[bullet225ho]

Yes,  28gram of 1.80 TSS is 509 pellet count.

 

in the 28ga I use 1/2oz (14gram) of 8.5 TSS (2.21mm)  roughly 150 pellets  duplexed with 1/2oz (14gram) of #4 steel. (3.30mm) roughly 95 pellets

245 total pellet count.  The TSS alone in this load has 2.0inches of gel penetration out to 67.9 yds.  (2.0" of gel penetration is what's expected for large geese)

The steel in the load is there to help open the pattern up sooner at close range and also provide more killing pellets at close range.  Once this load has reached 30yds or so the 4 steel is not really producing enough energy for a clean kill.  I'm ok with that as at 30yds and beyond the TSS has opened up enough to fill my target area (30" circle)

 

As a comparison  if one were to load a steel shot with equivalent penetration ballistics you'd need to have a 70gram load of 4.83mm shot.  I'm not sure if you can even do that with a 12ga.  

 

[islandgun]

2 hours ago, bullet225ho said:

Yes,  28gram of 1.80 TSS is 509 pellet count.

 

in the 28ga I use 1/2oz (14gram) of 8.5 TSS (2.21mm)  roughly 150 pellets  duplexed with 1/2oz (14gram) of #4 steel. (3.30mm) roughly 95 pellets

245 total pellet count.  The TSS alone in this load has 2.0inches of gel penetration out to 67.9 yds.  (2.0" of gel penetration is what's expected for large geese)

The steel in the load is there to help open the pattern up sooner at close range and also provide more killing pellets at close range.  Once this load has reached 30yds or so the 4 steel is not really producing enough energy for a clean kill.  I'm ok with that as at 30yds and beyond the TSS has opened up enough to fill my target area (30" circle)

 

As a comparison  if one were to load a steel shot with equivalent penetration ballistics you'd need to have a 70gram load of 4.83mm shot.  I'm not sure if you can even do that with a 12ga.  

 

That all makes sense. Have you have a link to duplex loads ?

[bullet225ho]

There is no published data to duplex loads that I know of.  That's kind of the quirk with 28 and 410 heavier than lead reloading.  Data is hard to come by.  I have to take data points from published steel/lead shot and come up with my own and then send off for testing.

 

I have a load that's been tested as safe for 28ga

Fiocchi 2 3/4" hull, Cheddite 209 primer, 24gn Lil-Gun, TPS wad, 1/2oz TSS, 1/2oz 4 Steel, Fold crimp,  1305fps.  12,100psi 

Also a load for 410

Cheddite 3" hull, Cheddite 209 primer, 15gn H110 (or Win 296) TPS wad, 4/8 TSS, 1/8 4 steel, fold crimp, 1245fps, 12,900psi

 

[islandgun]

9 hours ago, bullet225ho said:

There is no published data to duplex loads that I know of.  That's kind of the quirk with 28 and 410 heavier than lead reloading.  Data is hard to come by.  I have to take data points from published steel/lead shot and come up with my own and then send off for testing.

 

I have a load that's been tested as safe for 28ga

Fiocchi 2 3/4" hull, Cheddite 209 primer, 24gn Lil-Gun, TPS wad, 1/2oz TSS, 1/2oz 4 Steel, Fold crimp,  1305fps.  12,100psi 

Also a load for 410

Cheddite 3" hull, Cheddite 209 primer, 15gn H110 (or Win 296) TPS wad, 4/8 TSS, 1/8 4 steel, fold crimp, 1245fps, 12,900psi

 

Great stuff cheers, time to do some loads..👍