Howling at the moon or credible scenario? Mass law-breaking

[Lord v]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Oh dear, 'Freedom day' lasted approximately 17hours.

Boris - Mr Opposed to ID cards remember - appears on the television to tell us that 'Vaccine Passports' will be required from September.  Initially in nightclubs, but if you think it's going to stop at that, I've got some magic beans to sell you.

Yes, the 'slippery slope' argument is over-used, but if the past 18months have taught us anything, it's that what we're told will not come to pass, does.

Just how much of this will the British public put up with before they say enough is enough?  This 'papers please' mentality is fundamentally un-British and would've been electoral suicide up until very recently.

So, who is prepared to show their vaccination status just to go shopping, or go to a concert, or frankly enjoy whatever aspect of normal civilised society they wish to partake in?

I won't.  And I won't be staying in a country that does.

"On Monday, vaccines minister Nadhim Zahawi told MPs the government plans to make full vaccination a condition of entry to nightclubs and "other venues where large crowds gather" from the end of September."

In the not so distant depths of my family tree are some ancestors who saw the "writing on the wall" in certain parts of Europe and made a jump to friendlier places. (Trying not to invoke an internet law here... but there should be enough of a clue)

I blame it on genetics that when I read stuff like this I get very jittery feet. 

 

[Mungler]

It’s not being weary about the government of today, it’s the government of tomorrow…

Never been a fan of the ‘if you have nothing to hide approach’ to ID cards or ‘you must have x, y and z to enjoy normal life and freedoms’.

[JohnfromUK]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Just how much of this will the British public put up with before they say enough is enough?

15 minutes ago, Mungler said:

It’s not being weary about the government of today, it’s the government of tomorrow…

 

One of the dilemmas here is that we have a two party (plus a lame duck coalition maker possibly in the LibDems).  The current Labour opposition is apparently even more "Covid restrictive" than the government, as are the LibDems, so the present Conservative lot are the most 'liberal' choice on offer re Covid restrictions.

Edited July 20, 2021 by JohnfromUK

[udderlyoffroad]

I don't think the British Public have grasped how serious this is - I'd have expected PW to light up with anger at this proposal, but clearly people saw the word 'nightclubs' and switched their brain off.  It will *start* with nightclubs.

When you're having to get your phone out to 'scan in' to Tesco to pick up milk, then will they finally start to protest?

Be under no illusion, (if left unchecked) in a year's time, if you're unable or unwilling to show the QR code on your phone, you will be denied access to services and normal life.

In France Macron this morning has railed against the fact that his daughters are losing the best years of their youth 'because of the unvaccinated' - Different country, society, and culture of course, but 'divide and conquer' seemingly is a universal strategy.

This is the UK, we do not 'show our papers' - we have no requirement to carry ID whatever.  Why are people accepting this?.

18 hours ago, Lord v said:

In the not so distant depths of my family tree are some ancestors who saw the "writing on the wall" in certain parts of Europe and made a jump to friendlier places.

I am distantly related to people who saw the way things were going in Budapest in the 1940s and got out of dodge.  Their friends that didn't, ended up at the bottom of the Danube, where a memorial now stands (cast brass shoes).

Personally I say don't be shy about Godwin and his law; the things coming out of governments and the compliance of vast swathes of the populace is unreal to me.

It started with "Kauft nicht bei Juden ein" (Don't shop at Jewish shops).

 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, udderlyoffroad said:

This is the UK, we do not 'show our papers' - we have no requirement to carry ID whatever.  Why are people accepting this?.

That's not really true though is it.  There are now lots of occasions where you have to show photographic ID, proof of address etc - all under the guise of money laundering regulations.  My bank does it, taking out a new phone contract required it as do other services.

Personally - I have no problem with an ID - I have a driving license - and soon will have a new passport I hope.  They are all standard things.

[udderlyoffroad]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Personally - I have no problem with an ID - I have a driving license - and soon will have a new passport I hope.  They are all standard things.

I don't think you've grasped the difference here between proving you are who you say you are for access to certain servies and the requirement that you must be able to identify yourself at all times.

Once again: You do not have to show your papers to go about normal life.  You are not required to carry ID.  Strictly speaking you do not need to have your driving licence on you when driving either, unlike a lot of other countries.

So, once again, are you happy to 'scan in' to enter Tesco's to buy essentials or not? 

This is the path we have started down.

 

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, udderlyoffroad said:

So, once again, are you happy to 'scan in' to enter Tesco's to buy essentials or not?

I scan in with my 'pay' card anyway.  Not an issue.  I'm not paranoid about showing my ID, or vaccination status.

[udderlyoffroad]

You're really not getting this are you?

You will be denied access to services on the basis of your quasi-accessible health records.  It won't stop at COVID vaccines.  What if you haven't had this year's flu jab - Sorry no access to Lidl for you.  Tough.

What about those who can't be vaccinated for legitimate medical reasons - say they're pregnant.  Nope, sorry, you can't come in.  Ohh, but that's ok, you could show that on the App too?  Really?

Weddings, pubs, funerals, places of worship, taking your kids on a day out, game fairs...."check in or you're not coming in".  You really happy with that?

Do you have an elderly relative who doesn't own a smartphone, much less know how to use one?  Guess what, looks like you'll be doing all their shopping from now on. 

 

It has nothing to do with being paranoid about showing your ID, it's about a level of government control unheard of in peacetime.

Madeline Grant in Today's Telegraph put it quite well:

Quote

The Government may not be staging some grand conspiracy to turn Britain into a Chinese-style social credit system, zealously monitoring citizens’ behaviour to permit or prohibit basic rights. But sometimes weakness and incompetence can send a country in a similar direction. People may not care about clubs, or the young who frequent them. But they should care about a paradigm shift that undermines all our liberties.

 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, udderlyoffroad said:

You're really not getting this are you?

No, I'm not.  I didn't get the "Millennium Bug" either.  That was going to bring down planes, widespread power cuts, massive banking failure. 

Sorry - we will have to agree to differ.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Your link has a paywall!

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Your link has a paywall!

Show your vaccination passport then!

[udderlyoffroad]

2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Your link has a paywall!

And?  I quoted the relevant section.

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

Show your vaccination passport then!

Nobody *needs* to read newspaper to exist day to day.  Most people need food and occasional access to public services.

 

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

No, I'm not.  I didn't get the "Millennium Bug" either.  That was going to bring down planes, widespread power cuts, massive banking failure. 

Nonsense.  Conflating hysterical media reporting by journalists without a clue as to the actual issue, and the issue.

As it happens, I worked in the IT dept. of a certain airline on the "Y2k team".  The planes themselves were never going to fall out of the sky.  Boeing's PR team were kept busy taking nonsense calls from journalists about this. 

This particular airline's rather ancient UNIX-based reservation system however, needed extensive work or it would've fallen over, spectacularly.  No reservations system = no functioning airline.

But of course it was all nonsense right, because *you* didn't get it? 

 

9 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Sorry - we will have to agree to differ.

No problem with that, but will you at least acknowledge the law of unintended consequences?

I.e. When you're running around because your elderly mother or pregnant wife can't even buy bog-roll from the local shop - then will you acknowledge that those paranoid ejiots might've been on to something?

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

12 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Show your vaccination passport then!

?

UORs link to the Telegraph has a PAYWALL, consequently not available unless I join a trial or sign up and PAY!  

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

?

Sorry - it was an attempt at humour having a dig at the suggestion we will need to show a vaccine passport ID to do so many things

[Mungler]

What about if you had to prove your vaccination status to enter a public building or your place of work…

Can anyone remember what life was like before 9/11? What about before mobile phones and email? Is life better with the ‘progress’ since or are we still wandering down a less desirable path lead by fear?

Edited July 21, 2021 by Mungler

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

When you're running around because your elderly mother or pregnant wife can't even buy bog-roll from the local shop - then will you acknowledge that those paranoid ejiots might've been on to something?

I am confident it won't happen - just as it seems you are confident it will - which is why I am happy to agree to differ.  Incidentally, bog rolls are usually the first to be 'hard to get' in any paranoia scenario. 

 

10 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

But of course it was all nonsense right, because *you* didn't get it?

I also worked then in an IT dependant industry.  We looked at the various 'rumours', evaluated the possible mechanisms that might affect our business/products.   We ran some trials.  We concluded there was no risk to any of our proiducts and services - and advised our customers accordingly.  I cannot speak for other peoples products and services, but can only say that in my role as a member of Joe Public' - nothing happened. 

Had the Millennium Bug actually 'bitten' - I would have had to eat humble pie and agree I was wrong. 

1 minute ago, Mungler said:

What about if you had to prove your vaccination status to enter a public building or your place of work…

If the question is to me - I have no problem.  I have been 'asked' - and happily answered (truthfully) though not had to prove it.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

22 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Sorry - it was an attempt at humour having a dig at the suggestion we will need to show a vaccine passport ID to do so many things

Please do NOT give up your day job, the family will starve!  

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Please do NOT give up your day job, the family will starve!

That's a good one - I'm retired!

 

[udderlyoffroad]

20 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

am confident it won't happen - just as it seems you are confident it will

I don't quite understand how you can look at the events of the past 18months and conclude that it won't happen.  We were promised no domestic vaccine passports repeatedly, and on the 19th, suddenly...domestic vaccine passports.

In any case it dodges my question.  What if it does?

Or is it a case, of I'm alright Jack*, screw everyone else?

*I.e. retired, but comfortable with technology.  And don't mind "Social Credits lite"

 

[Lord v]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I am distantly related to people who saw the way things were going in Budapest in the 1940s and got out of dodge.  Their friends that didn't, ended up at the bottom of the Danube, where a memorial now stands (cast brass shoes).

Personally I say don't be shy about Godwin and his law; the things coming out of governments and the compliance of vast swathes of the populace is unreal to me.

It started with "Kauft nicht bei Juden ein" (Don't shop at Jewish shops).

 

When all the masks/exemptions kerfuffle kicked off last year on another forum I sarcastically suggested a series of bright geometric shapes that would mean people could easily identify someone's 'exemption'. 

It would appear that my sarcasm was wildly misplaced as this idea was seized upon as a brilliant idea and detail was bandied around - it wasn't until someone suggested pink triangles that someone went 'wait a minute...'

It was mildly terrifying. 

To me using vaccine status to potentially deny access to places of work, assembly, worship, food purchasing is a very very short step from requiring an identity or party political card to access the same. There is a fundamental difference between that and the level of identification that is currently generated when you currently access those things.   

I am sure that if I suggested on here that a voters registration or evidence of voting should be required to access healthcare and other public services it would generate a fair bit of support and I find that terrifying because todays sensible opinions can rapidly become tomorrows 'wrong think'. 

As has been said - Its not the Government of today you have to worry about... 

[JohnfromUK]

 

3 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I don't quite understand how you can look at the events of the past 18months and conclude that it won't happen.

........ and I don't understand how "you can look at the events of the past 18months and conclude" that we are moving into some sort of totalitarian state which is what I assume you are implying by "Be under no illusion, (if left unchecked) in a year's time, if you're unable or unwilling to show the QR code on your phone, you will be denied access to services and normal life."

Which is why as I said earlier, we will have to agree to differ.  You are obviously highly concerned about it - I am fairly relaxed about it.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Come on, someone mention Adolf!        

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

 

........ and I don't understand how "you can look at the events of the past 18months and conclude" that we are moving into some sort of totalitarian state which is what I assume you are implying by "Be under no illusion, (if left unchecked) in a year's time, if you're unable or unwilling to show the QR code on your phone, you will be denied access to services and normal life."

Which is why as I said earlier, we will have to agree to differ.  You are obviously highly concerned about it - I am fairly relaxed about it.

I've got to be honest, im concerned with the level of power and control we are giving away to government. I'm very relaxed with the current government and their intentions, Boris is a straight forward, intelligent and dynamic leader who currently has a good team around him. What worries me is if all this stuff gets put in place and/or gets passed into law. What happens when the likes of a Blair or if its even possible, worse gets in to power, they've then got far to much control and god only knows what they'll do with it. 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I've got to be honest, im concerned with the level of power and control we are giving away to government. I'm very relaxed with the current government and their intentions, Boris is a straight forward, intelligent and dynamic leader who currently has a good team around him. What worries me is if all this stuff gets put in place and/or gets passed into law. What happens when the likes of a Blair or if its even possible, worse gets in to power, they've then got far to much control and god only knows what they'll do with it. 

I'm not entirely sure I agree that "Boris is a straightforward ......." - in fact he has (in my view) little conception of the truth ........  however for anything to get "put in place and/or gets passed into law" that implies going through Parliament who will scrutinise it and only pass it if the majority vote 'Aye". 

Blair, Johnson, Starmer, Corbyn etc and any future Governments would all have (had) to pass that process.  Boris has a big majority (in theory), but he also has a lot of rebels within that majority - and I believe they would not pass significant changes in this area - just as they wouldn't pass May's Brexit plans.

 

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I'm not entirely sure I agree that "Boris is a straightforward ......." - in fact he has (in my view) little conception of the truth ........  however for anything to get "put in place and/or gets passed into law" that implies going through Parliament who will scrutinise it and only pass it if the majority vote 'Aye". 

Blair, Johnson, Starmer, Corbyn etc and any future Governments would all have (had) to pass that process.  Boris has a big majority (in theory), but he also has a lot of rebels within that majority - and I believe they would not pass significant changes in this area - just as they wouldn't pass May's Brexit plans.

 

By straight forward I suppose I meant honest and by honest I mean he absolutely will use subterfuge to achieve his purpose, but will usually be the purpose of a greater good that can't be passed in a straight way, due to woke agendas, but it will be what the average Joe on the street wants. I think it it partly this that has allowed the cons to take traditional labour seats.