Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[ordnance]

34 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

It was doing OK since 91 when it gained independence, then someone decided it needed more western style 'democracy'. 

Things wnt rapidly downhill from there... 

The cheek of them, a country wanting to deide their own future. 

[Rewulf]

16 minutes ago, ordnance said:

The cheek of them, a country wanting to deide their own future. 

I don't think the future they got was what they had in mind. 

But never mind, at least they'll be 'free', like Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan 😂

[ordnance]

11 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I don't think the future they got was what they had in mind. 

But never mind, at least they'll be 'free', like Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan 😂

 You seem to think they should just have bent over and took it from Russia / Putin, just because that would have being your pefered choice 

Edited September 10, 2022 by ordnance

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

 You seem to think they should just have bent over and took it from Russia / Putin, just because that would have being your pefered choice 

Did I say anything like that? 

I would have preferred none of it happened at all. But the situation is what it is, and no one seems to want to resolve peacefully. 

So on it goes, and where it ends, nobody knows. 

[Mungler]

11 hours ago, Rewulf said:

It was doing OK since 91 when it gained independence, then someone decided it needed more western style 'democracy'. 

Things wnt rapidly downhill from there... 

Pretty sure things were better, much better for Ukraine before being invaded by a lunatic lead neighbour. Yeah, great plan that whole invasion thing has transpired to be; cracking plan, something well thought out and a plan to be proud of. 

Mind you, the country appears to have allied and United behind Zelensky as leader and done rather well against a superior aggressing force. Conversely, it’s heading towards being more up in the air in Russia right now. Great plan. That Putin, he’s a shrewd one… so we were told at length. 

[Mungler]

Borrowed from elsewhere:

 

 

Why is Mordor losing? Because it is a Potempkin stake. It has become, under Sauron, a delusional kleptocracy. His first action was to steal the TV stations off the oligarchs because, ironically, they were criticising Yeltsin's trivial Johnson level corruption.

Sauron is a KGB trained propaganda expert, so it seemed natural to him to convert the by now Westernised and vibrant TV channels into a propaganda tool. His propaganda is very good, nothing like the boring, worthy Soviet crud. They've retained Western production standards, just changed the message. His next step was to take the Orc economy away from the greedy and flaky but money-making and smart oligarchs and give it to his KGB cronies, who just milk it for yachts and Italian villas while 20% of the population have no plumbing. He can get away with this because vast gas and oil reserves stop the whole thing collapsing. The whole edifice is absolutely mired in corruption and theft from top to bottom, propped up by oil, the genuine opposition murdered or jailed, a fake opposion of extremist psychos bought and paid for, and the truth hidden by a solid wall of well made and lively propaganda.

So how does all this economic dim-wittery cause them to lose? Everything not nailed down is stolen, the whole war is based on a lie, the budget is tiny, the high tech kit is vapour ware, nobody will ever tell anyone any hard truths, and everything is shoddy and broken.

The orcs are being beaten by an enemy who ran away or had already been killed using weapons that had already been destroyed, led by a handful of pedophile Nazis off their faces on drugs, apparently. Amazing really. Now reality has popped round and smacked the orcs in the face, as reality has a nasty habit of doing. 

Guardian exclusive today saying  "“[It] was a big special disinformation operation,” said Taras Berezovets, a former national security adviser turned press officer for the Bohun brigade of Ukraine’s special forces."

Unfortunately this is directly contradicted by the UKR General Staff, who say the counter offences are concurrent.

I think it actually goes as follows.

In Kherson the plan was to get as many Orc forces in as possible, blow the bridges to starve them of supplies, and slowly artrite them and blow up their logistics with HIMARS. This has always been obvious, so obvious that when the Orcs fell for it I was concerned it was an Orc trap in some way. They couldn't be THAT stupid, surely? Fortunately, yes, they could, for the reasons given above. As I feared they attacked towards Mykolaiv, but they got nowhere. However that set off the Ukranian counter attack early. As a result the orcs aren't really short of supplies yet, so UKR aren't really winning. But they're not losing either, and as the orcs start running out of hard to replace supplies UKR should begin to grind them down and out.

It was always likely that UKR had another army that it would use to attack Zaporizhzhia or Kharkiv. This again was widely commented on and it was no surprise to anyone when they had a go at Kharkiv. No surprise to anyone except the Orc high command it seems, who had stripped the place bare. The front collapsed far faster and far more catastrophically that anyone imagined it could.

The orcs were so shocked they actually exagarated the loss, bs-ing they were pulling out of Kharkiv region to reinforce Donbas.

In fact the orcs have not left the region, and are fighting hard in Izium and Lyman, both of which they claimed to have pulled out of, presumably anticipating they'd have to. This is the kind of fixed battle UKR don't like, so let's hope they don't get bogged down. 

Although UKR territorial gains are nice, the point of the exercise was to take Kupiansk and Izium, which will make Orc logistics much more complicated. This is how wars are won, you cut off the enemy supply lines. It took the orcs three months to take Izium and four days to lose most of it. Kupiansk is long gone.

UKR needs to tidy up now, take the rest of Izium, and make the rest of the border the Oskil River.

The critical offensive remains Kherson, but having seen what happened in Kharkiv you'd be brave to bet against UKR there. 

UKR are not the underdog any more. Because they have mobilised, they have a bigger army - the orcs are persistently short of manpower. What UKR cannot do is stand toe to toe with the orcs and punch, because the orcs have way more old fashioned innacurate artillery. So long as everything in front of them is hostile, the orcs can flatten it. But UKR is far better equipped to make vast numbers of accurate strikes, so it can dance around the orcs and destroy them, and it is no longer stretched for manpower.

The hard part, for UKR, is fighting in Donetsk and Luhansk. The orcs just blast them endlessly with artillery, slowly grinding their way through, leaving a smoking ruin behind.

However once UKR have cleared Kharkiv and tied up the Orcs in Kherson, they are then free to attack the orcs in Donetsk and Luhansk from multiple directions at once. The game will then be a different one, and one that suits UKR far better.

UKR haven't won, not by a long shot. But they've made it obvious they CAN win. That leaves Mordor with some difficult choices to make, politically and militarily.

There are a lot of intersting things that have enabled UKR to do better. One is the fitting of AGM-88s to their Soviet era planes. These have forced the orcs to pull their AA missiles right back, out of HARM's way, which in turn means UKR drones like Bayraktars can fly undetected and unmolested under a 1,000 meter ceiling. The orcs seem to have used up their HARMs in the first days of the war in a failed attempt to totally destroy UKR's AA once and for all.

Not only that, but although the Orc planes have the ability to carry high tech guided munitions, orcs don't seem to have any stocks, again, for the reasons I gave in the beginning. The orcs lost another 50 million buck SU34 the other day, because the planes have to come down low to drop unguided munitions.

Because of all this the orcs have been using very expensive guided ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and anti-ship missiles. These are accurate and devastating, but they can't make these as fast as they are using them. Also, they are persistently wasting them through poor intelligence, the most egregious example being hitting a concert hall in Vinnytsia with five very expensive missiles when they meant to hit the airforce headquarters across town, all because of a similarity in names.

In an effort to preserve stocks the orcs tried firing massive 1960s shipping missiles, but these just miss and bring bad publicity, partly because they are giant overkill. You fire something designed to sink an aircraft carrier and with no GPS guidance at a small factory making tank parts and you blow the absolute stuffing out of a shopping centre half a kilometre away. Then Zelensky goes on TV and accuses you of genocide. The honest truth, "Our weapons are rubbish, so we missed" isn't much better.

Meantime for relatively short range accurate missiling they are using S300 anti aircraft missiles. These are more accurate, but still not good enough, being designed to hit aircraft, and they cost a million bucks each. In the same role UKR are using HIMARS, which are pin point accurate and cost 150k a go.

The UKR approach is to dash about the place with ATVs and drones, call in a HIMARS strike on anything heavy they find, the HIMARS being safely miles away, and then take over with troops. Their weakness is nowhere near enough armoured personnel carriers and trucks, and we need to send them a boatload, now. Germans have them...

Neither side is using airpower much, UKR because it doesn't have any, orcs because lack of guided munitions gets it shot down. When it comes to close air support, both sides are firing rockets from their own sides of the lines and running home. Girkin had a go about "excessive caution", someone got a kick up the backside I assume, because the next day the orcs lost two ground attack aircraft and a helicopter and have wisely returned to excessive caution.

[treetree]

13 hours ago, ordnance said:

The cheek of them, a country wanting to deide their own future. 

I think the US had a fair amount of 'input' as to who the Ukranians should elect...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957.amp

[Mungler]

12 minutes ago, treetree said:

I think the US had a fair amount of 'input' as to who the Ukranians should elect...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957.amp

That was published in 2014 and yet the whole of Ukraine has mobilised to fight Russian invaders. Go figure.

[Mice!]

On 10/09/2022 at 08:58, oowee said:

suspect Putin will sue for peace job done before the uprising. He can simply settle back to the 2014 border having stuffed Ukraine for the foreseeable. 

That's it in a nut shell, Putin won't be bothered about his loses,  Ukraine was getting too friendly with NATO and now they'll spend the next 20 years rebuilding.

[ordnance]

4 hours ago, Mice! said:

That's it in a nut shell, Putin won't be bothered about his loses,  Ukraine was getting too friendly with NATO and now they'll spend the next 20 years rebuilding.

Putin has his own reasons for this war, but Ukraine getting to friendly with NATO is not one of them. It might be to late for Putin to sue for peace and settle for the 2014 borders, Ukraine will want to liberate all of Ukraine. Putin wasn't happy about the end of the Soviet Union, his actions could end up with the end of Putin and the break up of the Russian federation.

Edited September 11, 2022 by ordnance

[Dave-G]

11 hours ago, Mungler said:

Borrowed from elsewhere:

 

 

Why is Mordor losing? Because it is a Potempkin stake. It has become, under Sauron, a delusional kleptocracy. His first action was to steal the TV stations off the oligarchs because, ironically, they were criticising Yeltsin's trivial Johnson level corruption.

Sauron is a KGB trained propaganda expert, so it seemed natural to him to convert the by now Westernised and vibrant TV channels into a propaganda tool. His propaganda is very good, nothing like the boring, worthy Soviet crud. They've retained Western production standards, just changed the message. His next step was to take the Orc economy away from the greedy and flaky but money-making and smart oligarchs and give it to his KGB cronies, who just milk it for yachts and Italian villas while 20% of the population have no plumbing. He can get away with this because vast gas and oil reserves stop the whole thing collapsing. The whole edifice is absolutely mired in corruption and theft from top to bottom, propped up by oil, the genuine opposition murdered or jailed, a fake opposion of extremist psychos bought and paid for, and the truth hidden by a solid wall of well made and lively propaganda.

So how does all this economic dim-wittery cause them to lose? Everything not nailed down is stolen, the whole war is based on a lie, the budget is tiny, the high tech kit is vapour ware, nobody will ever tell anyone any hard truths, and everything is shoddy and broken.

The orcs are being beaten by an enemy who ran away or had already been killed using weapons that had already been destroyed, led by a handful of pedophile Nazis off their faces on drugs, apparently. Amazing really. Now reality has popped round and smacked the orcs in the face, as reality has a nasty habit of doing. 

Guardian exclusive today saying  "“[It] was a big special disinformation operation,” said Taras Berezovets, a former national security adviser turned press officer for the Bohun brigade of Ukraine’s special forces."

Unfortunately this is directly contradicted by the UKR General Staff, who say the counter offences are concurrent.

I think it actually goes as follows.

In Kherson the plan was to get as many Orc forces in as possible, blow the bridges to starve them of supplies, and slowly artrite them and blow up their logistics with HIMARS. This has always been obvious, so obvious that when the Orcs fell for it I was concerned it was an Orc trap in some way. They couldn't be THAT stupid, surely? Fortunately, yes, they could, for the reasons given above. As I feared they attacked towards Mykolaiv, but they got nowhere. However that set off the Ukranian counter attack early. As a result the orcs aren't really short of supplies yet, so UKR aren't really winning. But they're not losing either, and as the orcs start running out of hard to replace supplies UKR should begin to grind them down and out.

It was always likely that UKR had another army that it would use to attack Zaporizhzhia or Kharkiv. This again was widely commented on and it was no surprise to anyone when they had a go at Kharkiv. No surprise to anyone except the Orc high command it seems, who had stripped the place bare. The front collapsed far faster and far more catastrophically that anyone imagined it could.

The orcs were so shocked they actually exagarated the loss, bs-ing they were pulling out of Kharkiv region to reinforce Donbas.

In fact the orcs have not left the region, and are fighting hard in Izium and Lyman, both of which they claimed to have pulled out of, presumably anticipating they'd have to. This is the kind of fixed battle UKR don't like, so let's hope they don't get bogged down. 

Although UKR territorial gains are nice, the point of the exercise was to take Kupiansk and Izium, which will make Orc logistics much more complicated. This is how wars are won, you cut off the enemy supply lines. It took the orcs three months to take Izium and four days to lose most of it. Kupiansk is long gone.

UKR needs to tidy up now, take the rest of Izium, and make the rest of the border the Oskil River.

The critical offensive remains Kherson, but having seen what happened in Kharkiv you'd be brave to bet against UKR there. 

UKR are not the underdog any more. Because they have mobilised, they have a bigger army - the orcs are persistently short of manpower. What UKR cannot do is stand toe to toe with the orcs and punch, because the orcs have way more old fashioned innacurate artillery. So long as everything in front of them is hostile, the orcs can flatten it. But UKR is far better equipped to make vast numbers of accurate strikes, so it can dance around the orcs and destroy them, and it is no longer stretched for manpower.

The hard part, for UKR, is fighting in Donetsk and Luhansk. The orcs just blast them endlessly with artillery, slowly grinding their way through, leaving a smoking ruin behind.

However once UKR have cleared Kharkiv and tied up the Orcs in Kherson, they are then free to attack the orcs in Donetsk and Luhansk from multiple directions at once. The game will then be a different one, and one that suits UKR far better.

UKR haven't won, not by a long shot. But they've made it obvious they CAN win. That leaves Mordor with some difficult choices to make, politically and militarily.

There are a lot of intersting things that have enabled UKR to do better. One is the fitting of AGM-88s to their Soviet era planes. These have forced the orcs to pull their AA missiles right back, out of HARM's way, which in turn means UKR drones like Bayraktars can fly undetected and unmolested under a 1,000 meter ceiling. The orcs seem to have used up their HARMs in the first days of the war in a failed attempt to totally destroy UKR's AA once and for all.

Not only that, but although the Orc planes have the ability to carry high tech guided munitions, orcs don't seem to have any stocks, again, for the reasons I gave in the beginning. The orcs lost another 50 million buck SU34 the other day, because the planes have to come down low to drop unguided munitions.

Because of all this the orcs have been using very expensive guided ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and anti-ship missiles. These are accurate and devastating, but they can't make these as fast as they are using them. Also, they are persistently wasting them through poor intelligence, the most egregious example being hitting a concert hall in Vinnytsia with five very expensive missiles when they meant to hit the airforce headquarters across town, all because of a similarity in names.

In an effort to preserve stocks the orcs tried firing massive 1960s shipping missiles, but these just miss and bring bad publicity, partly because they are giant overkill. You fire something designed to sink an aircraft carrier and with no GPS guidance at a small factory making tank parts and you blow the absolute stuffing out of a shopping centre half a kilometre away. Then Zelensky goes on TV and accuses you of genocide. The honest truth, "Our weapons are rubbish, so we missed" isn't much better.

Meantime for relatively short range accurate missiling they are using S300 anti aircraft missiles. These are more accurate, but still not good enough, being designed to hit aircraft, and they cost a million bucks each. In the same role UKR are using HIMARS, which are pin point accurate and cost 150k a go.

The UKR approach is to dash about the place with ATVs and drones, call in a HIMARS strike on anything heavy they find, the HIMARS being safely miles away, and then take over with troops. Their weakness is nowhere near enough armoured personnel carriers and trucks, and we need to send them a boatload, now. Germans have them...

Neither side is using airpower much, UKR because it doesn't have any, orcs because lack of guided munitions gets it shot down. When it comes to close air support, both sides are firing rockets from their own sides of the lines and running home. Girkin had a go about "excessive caution", someone got a kick up the backside I assume, because the next day the orcs lost two ground attack aircraft and a helicopter and have wisely returned to excessive caution.

This became hard work when I started reading about 'orks' who are they?

[Mungler]

13 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

This became hard work when I started reading about 'orks' who are they?

Sauron = Putin

Orcs = Russian soldiers 

Come on, you must have seen one of the Lord of the Rings films 😀

Edit

Sauron’s unpopularity in Mordor (that’s Russia to you) has even made it onto the MSM 10 pm news.

Where are the resident Russian shills - there’s at least 2 big Putin fans on here who have been on the missing list for the last week. 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Mungler

[Dave-G]

13 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Sauron = Putin

Orcs = Russian soldiers 

Come on, you must have seen one of the Lord of the Rings films 😀

Edit

Sauron’s unpopularity in Mordor (that’s Russia to you) has even made it onto the MSM 10 pm news.

Where are the resident Russian shills - there’s at least 2 big Putin fans on here who have been on the missing list for the last week. 

 

Never watched any of them, and don't think I'd get my head round them lol, but thanks for the translation. 

[Mungler]

For the first time there is open dissent (albeit with a small ‘d’) on Russian TV. It appears that those under 50 who have been exposed to the norms of the West, are questioning the whole war invasion empire building thing. However, those over 50 are insistent that Putin’s ‘as long as it takes view’ is hunky dorey because it’s all about drug addled Nazis and these lot want mobilisation, everyone else’s children sent to Ukraine to fight and for the nukes to come out. 

There is a machine translated TV show in the feed below - it’s worth a watch and to see where the divisions are.

 

 

 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

For the first time there is open dissent (albeit with a small ‘d’) on Russian TV. It appears that those under 50 who have been exposed to the norms of the West, are questioning the whole war invasion empire building thing. However, those over 50 are insistent that Putin’s ‘as long as it takes view’ is hunky dorey because it’s all about drug addled Nazis and these lot want mobilisation, everyone else’s children sent to Ukraine to fight and for the nukes to come out.

Is this the same Russian media which dare not speak out, in fear of being thrown out of windows? 

Is this the same populace which has no Internet, so doesn't know what's going on in the wider world? 

Is this the same cowed people who dare not question the direction of Putin's Russia? 

How strange. 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Is this the same Russian media which dare not speak out, in fear of being thrown out of windows? 

Is this the same populace which has no Internet, so doesn't know what's going on in the wider world? 

Is this the same cowed people who dare not question the direction of Putin's Russia? 

How strange. 

In a word ‘Yes’. 

This is the first and only time anyone has dared to utter any public criticism of Putin / those in control and which is why it is so interesting.

If you watch the studio clip, one of the old guard actually tells one of the liberals to watch and take care in what they say in criticising those in charge.

There’s also a mood change about Putin in Chinese media, but that’s for another time.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

This is the first and only time anyone has dared to utter any public criticism of Putin / those in control and which is why it is so interesting.

That, is absolute rubbish !
The clip is very interesting, in that it goes a long way to showing that Putin is not the all powerful 'Sauron', and Russia is not 'Mordor' inhabited by 'orcs'
Ordinary Russians do have a voice, and they do have representatives who dont agree with the war, and they arent summarily executed for speaking out.
Im not sure the same can be said in some Ukrainian held areas.

Its not that long ago we were told that Russians dont know whats happening in Ukraine, as they have 'no contact' with the outside world !
Are we happy that that is not the case , and never has been ?

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

If you watch the studio clip, one of the old guard actually tells one of the liberals to watch and take care in what they say in criticising those in charge.

He says no such thing , he asks him to watch his language when talking about 'colonial war methods' being used Ukraine 'that arent working'
 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

That, is absolute rubbish !
The clip is very interesting, in that it goes a long way to showing that Putin is not the all powerful 'Sauron', and Russia is not 'Mordor' inhabited by 'orcs'
Ordinary Russians do have a voice, and they do have representatives who dont agree with the war, and they arent summarily executed for speaking out.
Im not sure the same can be said in some Ukrainian held areas.

Its not that long ago we were told that Russians dont know whats happening in Ukraine, as they have 'no contact' with the outside world !
Are we happy that that is not the case , and never has been ?

He says no such thing , he asks him to watch his language when talking about 'colonial war methods' being used Ukraine 'that arent working'
 

 

You are talking out the back of your hat. There are far too many murder suicides, people falling out of windows and being locked up for opposing Putin to suggest that it's some sort of modern liberal free thinking and free speaking regime.

You love a trawl of the internet. I found one single clip posted by the Russian media monitor group that for the first time has a whiff of disagreement with the Kremlin's current strategy being verbalized out loud by two panelists on the show, but of course no one dares to mention the name "Putin" out loud in any of that or say anything directly contentious.

If it's all so liberal and free out there, you will no doubt be able to find a similar number of broadcast clips. There's a prize for finding a TV clip where someone directly says something like "Putin has got this wrong" ney "Putin may have got this wrong".

Report back and let us know how you get on.

 

 

 

[Rewulf]

35 minutes ago, Mungler said:

You are talking out the back of your hat. There are far too many murder suicides, people falling out of windows and being locked up for opposing Putin to suggest that it's some sort of modern liberal free thinking and free speaking regime.

You love a trawl of the internet. I found one single clip posted by the Russian media monitor group that for the first time has a whiff of disagreement with the Kremlin's current strategy being verbalized out loud by two panelists on the show, but of course no one dares to mention the name "Putin" out loud in any of that or say anything directly contentious.

If it's all so liberal and free out there, you will no doubt be able to find a similar number of broadcast clips. There's a prize for finding a TV clip where someone directly says something like "Putin has got this wrong" ney "Putin may have got this wrong".

Report back and let us know how you g

I think Im beginning to understand you 

You dont actually want to countenance any disagreement from your point of view, to the extent that you constantly attribute to me things Ive never said.
At best youll take it out of context.
Point out to me where Ive said any of the highlighted points above, Jesus man , I KNOW Russia is not a liberal society, as much as I state Putin is not a nice man , you ignore it, and ramble on with your insult laden crusade to prove how right you are.
You and others stated multiple times that Russians dont know whats going on in their censored internet environment with the only media available being state controlled.
Then when you yourself post a debate where the wisdom of the war is questioned, directly contradicting what youve said, you claim its the first time its happened, and the population of Russian worker drones might start waking up at last !
Then its a dash of 'No one may mention the dark lords name !!!' What on earth do you think goes off in the mind of people man ?
Do you really buy into the idea that Russia is really Mordor 😆

Try and understand that you are not the only intelligent thinking being in the world, and everyone else is a stupid mindless blob.

 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Report back and let us know how you get on.

Spent a couple of minutes on it .

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/criticism-vladimir-putin-ukraine-war-russian-state-tv-rossiya-1-karen-shakhnazarov-semyon-bagdasarov-b987471.html

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-moscow-putin-war-ukraine-resignation-revolt-1741743

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/10/media/russia-journalists-criticize-putin/index.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF-9VJNCpok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUlgd7HZtYU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Ue45dJxy0

So not exactly the first time eh ?

 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Spent a couple of minutes on it .

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/criticism-vladimir-putin-ukraine-war-russian-state-tv-rossiya-1-karen-shakhnazarov-semyon-bagdasarov-b987471.html

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-moscow-putin-war-ukraine-resignation-revolt-1741743

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/10/media/russia-journalists-criticize-putin/index.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF-9VJNCpok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUlgd7HZtYU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Ue45dJxy0

So not exactly the first time eh ?

 

None of those links stand up to any scrutiny.

The first, the reporter was arrested, the second was only 2 days ago (sic where I started that the only sniff of open criticism has come now with a massive series of defeats in Ukraine [or tactical withdrawals as you will have us believe]), the third if you read the article you will get to the bit ‘CNN reviewed the articles, which were taken down almost immediately after they were published on a pro-Kremlin news site’ and the you tube ones are external to Russia and clips from US network TV talking about Kremlin issued state propaganda.

You are entirely contrary in your views and I have no idea what you are trying to say. Indeed what are you saying? 

Until about 2 days ago there has been no critique or dissent in Russia that lasted more than but hours until taken down / the broadcasters arrested. 

I post the first clip of open dissent and you claim what? That there’s been open dissent throughout? That the Russian people have had free access to balanced reporting and information? That RT today isn’t the state mouthpiece? That the Russian state until last week were tolerant of dissent and open protest against the war?

 

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

None of those links stand up to any scrutiny

Thought they wouldn't 😂

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

Until about 2 days ago there has been no critique or dissent in Russia that lasted more than but hours until taken down / the broadcasters arrested

Aah, I see, youve changed it from 'this the first time the wars been criticised on Russian TV' to, 'this is the first time they've not been arrested for criticising the war on Russian TV' a subtle difference that makes no difference!

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

you constantly attribute to me things Ive never said.

And here's a great example.... 

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

you claim what? That there’s been open dissent throughout? That the Russian people have had free access to balanced reporting and information? That RT today isn’t the state mouthpiece? That the Russian state until last week were tolerant of dissent and open protest against the war?

Where have I said ANY of that? You've ignored what I've actually said and replaced it with what you want to hear, so you can rebuke it. 

Why don't you try actually reading stuff and analysing it, rather than just constantly looking for arguments with your perceived 'enemies' 

It's ridiculous 😂

[Mungler]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Thought they wouldn't 😂

Aah, I see, youve changed it from 'this the first time the wars been criticised on Russian TV' to, 'this is the first time they've not been arrested for criticising the war on Russian TV' a subtle difference that makes no difference!

And here's a great example.... 

Where have I said ANY of that? You've ignored what I've actually said and replaced it with what you want to hear, so you can rebuke it. 

Why don't you try actually reading stuff and analysing it, rather than just constantly looking for arguments with your perceived 'enemies' 

It's ridiculous 😂

 

Those links / clips you posted don’t stand up to scrutiny. Again, find me some broadcast clips of open criticism of the war / Putin, before last week.

If you think there is any objectivity in Russian media about the invasion (and it is an invasion and not a special military operation 😉) then post them and let’s have another look.

Alternatively I suggest you spend a few minutes on the Russian media watch Twitter feed (above). That’s got some cracking stuff on it.

For all your moaning about putting words in your mouth, I still have no idea what point you think you are making or who you think you are arguing with or what about?

Bizarre. Indeed contrary and bizarre. 

 

[Rewulf]

42 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Those links / clips you posted don’t stand up to scrutiny. Again, find me some broadcast clips of open criticism of the war / Putin, before last week

Try reading the first link I posted, which is dated 11th March 😂

44 minutes ago, Mungler said:

For all your moaning about putting words in your mouth, I still have no idea what point you think you are making or who you think you are arguing with or what about?

At least you're not denying that's what you're doing. 

If you want the point {and I don't think you do} try listening to what people say, rather than listening to your own righteous chanting. 

[Mungler]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Try reading the first link I posted, which is dated 11th March 😂

At least you're not denying that's what you're doing. 

If you want the point {and I don't think you do} try listening to what people say, rather than listening to your own righteous chanting. 

You are bonkers. That first link, if you read it goes on to confirm that the host of the show immediately closed down the dissenting voice.

I initially thought the link was to the TV anchorwoman who dissented and got arrested.

The other links follow a similar pattern - dissent, closing down and taken off air / off line.

Again, and for the third time I still have absolutely no idea what point you think you are making or who you think are arguing with or what about.

You’re losing your grip - must be the loss of that Dacha 😆

Oh and this made me chuckle