Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Ill bet they did 😆

I know right , Izyum being on a big road and rail junction, and a huge logistics hub for Russian forces, from which they launched attacks south and west, theres absolutely no reason for Ukraine to shell them is there ? 
Give me strength 🤪

Hardly time for Ukrain to grind when they rolled over the rusks so easily. 

[ordnance]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

They arent 'conscripts' , Russia has national service , there are 2 million plus reservists, plus mobilisation means far more than just mobilising troops , its about putting the whole country on a war footing , industry ect.
You dont call out reservists/TA ,conscripts do you ?

 

Not on this thread.
Mind you , theres a few who still dont think its a proxy war, and Maidan was just democracy at work 🤪

It's to late there is no win in this for Russia, they don't have the ability to win. To take and hold a country like Ukraine would require a commitment and resources Russia doesn't have, once plan A failed it was / is only a matter of time.

Edited September 16, 2022 by ordnance

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

Hardly time for Ukrain to grind when they rolled over the rusks so easily. 

I appreciate the sentiment, but making peace now secures the future, they aren't going to destroy Russia, but if they go too far, Russia may well do something nasty. 

Russia may well be on the back foot, but let's be honest about Ukraine capabilities. 

58 minutes ago, ordnance said:

It's to late there is no win in this for Russia, they don't have the ability to win. To take and hold a country like Ukraine would require a commitment and resources Russia doesn't have, once plan A failed it was / is only a matter of time.

There were plenty who, earlier on in this thread were saying Russia wouldn't stop at Ukraine, now they can't even beat Ukraine? 

Russia may not 'win' but Ukraines 'victory' is very pyrrhic. 

[oowee]

32 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I appreciate the sentiment, but making peace now secures the future, they aren't going to destroy Russia, but if they go too far, Russia may well do something nasty. 

Russia may well be on the back foot, but let's be honest about Ukraine capabilities. 

There were plenty who, earlier on in this thread were saying Russia wouldn't stop at Ukraine, now they can't even beat Ukraine? 

Russia may not 'win' but Ukraines 'victory' is very pyrrhic. 

I don't think the win for Ukraine is a problem. The country is resourceful and will be rebuilt. Look how quickly west Germany was reborn. I think the bigger issue for them is the speed of modernisation and integration that goes with it. It's clear some countries (Hungary) have a mountain to climb to meet the West's ambitions for basic standards. Corruption, equality, judicial systems will be monumental hurdles. 

Where does all this leave Russia? If Putin retains control no doubt he will want to grind away. The cost to us all will be huge. If he is out who knows what's next. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by oowee

[ordnance]

Quote

 

There were plenty who, earlier on in this thread were saying Russia wouldn't stop at Ukraine, now they can't even beat Ukraine? 

Russia may not 'win' but Ukraines 'victory' is very pyrrhic.

 

That was a fear in NATO countries that the great Russian army would / could invade other NATO countries, now Putin's actions have shown the Russian army to be corrupt, incompetent, poorly led, equipped, not the army that all feared. He has managed to unite NATO increase NATO spending and expansion it is and will be a disaster for Russia and Putin. 

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, ordnance said:

That was a fear in NATO countries that the great Russian army would / could invade other NATO countries, now Putin's actions have shown the Russian army to be corrupt, incompetent, poorly led, equipped, not the army that all feared. He has managed to unite NATO increase NATO spending and expansion it is and will be a disaster for Russia and Putin. 

^^^^ This. NATO would role over this Russian army like they did Sadams in the desert. 

I hope Russia can find a way out. Its a vast country with huge resources. Far better to have them working than turned into some insular pariah. 

[ordnance]

Just now, oowee said:

^^^^ This. NATO would role over this Russian army like they did Sadams in the desert. 

I hope Russia can find a way out. Its a vast country with huge resources. Far better to have them working than turned into some insular pariah. 

One of Russia's big revenues was weapons sales i can't see countries queuing up to buy Russian tanks etc now.  One of the excuse's for their poor performance in Iraq etc was they were poorly crewed and used and that would not happen if the Russians were using them, its clear for all to see now that they are just ****. Countries will now be queuing up to replace their Russian equipment for western weapons, another loss for Putin and Russia. 

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, ordnance said:

That was a fear in NATO countries that the great Russian army would / could invade other NATO countries, now Putin's actions have shown the Russian army to be corrupt, incompetent, poorly led, equipped, not the army that all feared. He has managed to unite NATO increase NATO spending and expansion it is and will be a disaster for Russia and Putin. 

I can't argue with any of that, but look at it this way. Who is paying for all this? And if Russia is so rubbish at warfare, why do they need to increase spending? 

 

7 minutes ago, ordnance said:

One of Russia's big revenues was weapons sales i can't see countries queuing up to buy Russian tanks etc now.  One of the excuse's for their poor performance in Iraq etc was they were poorly crewed and used and that would not happen if the Russians were using them, its clear for all to see now that they are just ****. Countries will now be queuing up to replace their Russian equipment for western weapons, another loss for Putin and Russia. 

Russian weapons are considerably cheaper than Western stuff, definitely not as good, but how often are they used on well equipped armies? Most of the time they're used on the populace, or 'insurgents' 

One things for sure, warfare is changing rapidly, and many armies are ill equipped for modern combat. 

 

[ordnance]

Quote

I can't argue with any of that, but look at it this way. Who is paying for all this? And if Russia is so rubbish at warfare, why do they need to increase spending? 

A mixture of wishful thinking and turning a blind eye, now they realise there is a cost to keeping the peace. I don't agree with much Trump said but his warning about European NATO countries not spending enough on defence, and their reliance on Russian energy supplies weren't far of the mark. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by ordnance

[Dave-G]

2 hours ago, ordnance said:

That was a fear in NATO countries that the great Russian army would / could invade other NATO countries, now Putin's actions have shown the Russian army to be corrupt, incompetent, poorly led, equipped, not the army that all feared. He has managed to unite NATO increase NATO spending and expansion it is and will be a disaster for Russia and Putin. 

It could have been different for Russia if their generals, advisors and admin etc were allowed to speak freely.

[ordnance]

21 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

It could have been different for Russia if their generals, advisors and admin etc were allowed to speak freely.

True, but any idiot would know forcibility taking and controlling a country like Ukraine would be a near imposable with the number of troops the Russians deployed, Putin was relying on the government in Ukraine fleeing, the army not putting up a fight, and the population acquiescing and Russia putting a puppet regime in place, he was wrong on all counts. He had made his mind up to invade and his generals, advisors and admin etc told him what he wanted to hear, he will now be blaming them for not telling him the truth, he didn't want to hear. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by ordnance

[oowee]

6 hours ago, Dave-G said:

It could have been different for Russia if their generals, advisors and admin etc were allowed to speak freely.

And that is the nub of the issue for both Russia and China. The difference between autocracy and democracy. If you don't have free thought you cannot be creative. 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

And that is the nub of the issue for both Russia and China. The difference between autocracy and democracy. If you don't have free thought you cannot be creative. 

I have heard that elsewhere and agree. 

Apparently Putin has taken over direct control of military operations and no, no one can speak truth to power in Russia else there’s a wobbly window or a prison cell somewhere cold waiting for them. 

It’s been a big eye opener for the rest of the world - what were we told about the master tactician and the super power that is Russia? Corruption, incompetence and a nutter at the helm has done for them.

No idea how the Russian climb down the ladder now without looking ridiculous.

[Rewulf]

13 hours ago, ordnance said:

A mixture of wishful thinking and turning a blind eye, now they realise there is a cost to keeping the peace. I don't agree with much Trump said but his warning about European NATO countries not spending enough on defence, and their reliance on Russian energy supplies weren't far of the mark. 

There is indeed , in the US they are closing in on $1 trillion a year to err. keep the peace....
Mull that over for a second, think about how much could be done with that money for the good of the American people ?

Oh but America has enemies you say..
Most of them they created themselves, and the old , 'Russia will take over entirety of Europe if it wasnt for Uncle Sam'
Really ?
They cant take over a country with a $5 billion a year defence budget !

4 hours ago, Mungler said:

It’s been a big eye opener for the rest of the world - what were we told about the master tactician and the super power that is Russia? Corruption, incompetence and a nutter at the helm has done for them.

Hitleresque comparisons of master tacticians aside, Russia IS a nuclear armed, resource rich superpower, and corruption, incompetence and a nutter at the helm are not exclusive to Russia 

But as Ive said , levelling accusations, blaming and threatening are not going to help Ukraine put itself back together when this is all over.
Whats needed is a lasting peace , with a neighbour who isnt going to be holding grudges , dreaming of revenge for the next decade or so.
If you believe Russia is going to be smashed back into 1917 by this , I think you are being very imaginative.

Putin wont last forever, this debacle wont have endeared him to any except the most stalwart of his generals, but closing the iron curtain isnt going to happen, no one wants cold war 2, well almost no one , I would think theres a few arms company execs who wouldnt mind, but its not like they run the country and get presidents elected is it 

NATO/US could shut this war down in a couple of weeks, easily.
Stop supplying Ukraine with weapons they cant afford, call for a brokered peace and ceasefire, mediate a peace deal, that may or may not involve Oblast by Oblast elections, that are overseen by neutral observers.
Offer both Russia, Ukraine and Belarus NATO membership, with UN peacekeepers in till its ratified.
Stop this ridiculous arms race that benefits no one except the elite few, all countries would save billions a year pointing weapons at perceived enemies conjured up by vested interests.
Once a solid peace is established , get Russia to pay reparations to Ukraine , pay them in gas /oil they could sell on to Europe ?
Heal the wounds caused by this ridiculous conflict.

Pipe dream ? Probably..Tell where all this isnt fully possible....

The only issue, is that there are vested interests in making this conflict continue as long as possible , for what ? Money ?
Makes you wonder what people could possibly spend it on , when they cant spend what they already have ?
 

Brand again, puts some things into perspective, and yes , his manner is annoying, doesnt make the words any less true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo1xha9GTEE

 

[Mungler]

54 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

There is indeed , in the US they are closing in on $1 trillion a year to err. keep the peace....
Mull that over for a second, think about how much could be done with that money for the good of the American people ?

Oh but America has enemies you say..
Most of them they created themselves, and the old , 'Russia will take over entirety of Europe if it wasnt for Uncle Sam'
Really ?
They cant take over a country with a $5 billion a year defence budget !

Hitleresque comparisons of master tacticians aside, Russia IS a nuclear armed, resource rich superpower, and corruption, incompetence and a nutter at the helm are not exclusive to Russia 

But as Ive said , levelling accusations, blaming and threatening are not going to help Ukraine put itself back together when this is all over.
Whats needed is a lasting peace , with a neighbour who isnt going to be holding grudges , dreaming of revenge for the next decade or so.
If you believe Russia is going to be smashed back into 1917 by this , I think you are being very imaginative.

Putin wont last forever, this debacle wont have endeared him to any except the most stalwart of his generals, but closing the iron curtain isnt going to happen, no one wants cold war 2, well almost no one , I would think theres a few arms company execs who wouldnt mind, but its not like they run the country and get presidents elected is it 

NATO/US could shut this war down in a couple of weeks, easily.
Stop supplying Ukraine with weapons they cant afford, call for a brokered peace and ceasefire, mediate a peace deal, that may or may not involve Oblast by Oblast elections, that are overseen by neutral observers.
Offer both Russia, Ukraine and Belarus NATO membership, with UN peacekeepers in till its ratified.
Stop this ridiculous arms race that benefits no one except the elite few, all countries would save billions a year pointing weapons at perceived enemies conjured up by vested interests.
Once a solid peace is established , get Russia to pay reparations to Ukraine , pay them in gas /oil they could sell on to Europe ?
Heal the wounds caused by this ridiculous conflict.

Pipe dream ? Probably..Tell where all this isnt fully possible....

The only issue, is that there are vested interests in making this conflict continue as long as possible , for what ? Money ?
Makes you wonder what people could possibly spend it on , when they cant spend what they already have ?
 

Brand again, puts some things into perspective, and yes , his manner is annoying, doesnt make the words any less true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo1xha9GTEE

 

 

Since Day 1 you have been saying that Ukraine shouldn’t be supplied with the weapons it wants and needs to defend itself - pressing for that must get you that Dacha upgrade.

I really don’t know where to start; try to imagine if the US had taken that view when we were standing upto the Nazis? Oh yes, that was when we were fighting a proxy war against the Germans on behalf of the Americans 😆

Had anyone listened to the idiotic pro-Russian cry to stop supplying Ukraine, that country would have been overtaken by now (it would have been the only outcome), under Russian rule and who can hope to negotiate off the back of that?

Now we have a remarkable turn of events. A negotiated settlement ought to be possible now with both sides negotiating on a level footing but that has only come by fighting and being supplied. 

You talk of Ukraine having a bitter neighbour to contend with - I think you have that back to front and I couldn’t blame the Ukranians for wanting to keep going in kicking out the Russian invaders. Indeed, I wonder how much more stomach the Russian invaders have for this because I suspect it’s less than the Ukrainians.

 

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Since Day 1 you have been saying that Ukraine shouldn’t be supplied with the weapons it wants and needs to defend itself - pressing for that must get you that Dacha upgrade.

Another stupid comment, Ive said no such thing, and I thought you said I wasnt getting a dacha anymore ?

10 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I really don’t know where to start; try to imagine if the US had taken that view when we were standing upto the Nazis? Oh yes, that was when we were fighting a proxy war against the Germans on behalf of the Americans 😆

By your own standards that analogy doesnt apply , as it happened over 20 years ago.

11 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Had anyone listened to the idiotic pro-Russian cry to stop supplying Ukraine, that country would have been overtaken by now (it would have been the only outcome), under Russian rule and who can hope to negotiate off the back of that?

But it didnt , because it had western backing from day 1.
But iTs nOt A prOxY wAr !

12 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Now we have a remarkable turn of events. A negotiated settlement ought to be possible now with both sides negotiating on a level footing but that has only come by fighting and being supplied. 

Yet no one is talking of a negotiated settlement !
They are talking about kicking the Russians out of Ukraine  'Whatever it takes' 
So when they get to the pro Russian areas of Donbass , at least Zelensky can keep his election promise of ending the Donbass civil war..
By killing or subjugating the residents who resist.

 

16 minutes ago, Mungler said:

You talk of Ukraine having a bitter neighbour to contend with - I think you have that back to front and I couldn’t blame the Ukranians for wanting to keep going in kicking out the Russian invaders. Indeed, I wonder how much more stomach the Russian invaders have for this because I suspect it’s less than the Ukrainians.

As above , the people of Donbass arent invading , what to do with them , send them back to Russia ?
Exterminate the 'orc' scum ?

Be very careful what you wish for , Ukrainian atrocities and ethnic cleansing arent myths to be ignored.
Theyve said they want the Russian language and culture removed from Ukraine, how far are they prepared to go to achieve this ?

[mchughcb]

On 16/09/2022 at 18:33, Mungler said:

How random. Australia? And the charges were dropped. Is that the best you’ve got. 
 

In other news, mass graves found in Izium. No doubt more MSM lies.

Mass graves with crosses on them. You mean a Christian burial during war?

[Newbie to this]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Whats needed is a lasting peace , with a neighbour who isnt going to be holding grudges , dreaming of revenge for the next decade or so.

This is the nub of it all, Ukraine can push Russia back and out of their country, but with out advancing into Russia and unseating Putin (and we all know where that will get them and the rest of us), what's to stop him (Putin) re-grouping, re-arming and starting the whole thing all over.

A peace needs to be brokered, that both sides can accept. But I can't see it happening. 

[Mungler]

15 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

This is the nub of it all, Ukraine can push Russia back and out of their country, but with out advancing into Russia and unseating Putin (and we all know where that will get them and the rest of us), what's to stop him (Putin) re-grouping, re-arming and starting the whole thing all over.

A peace needs to be brokered, that both sides can accept. But I can't see it happening. 

Agreed. What it needs is Russia out and Ukraine being fast tracked into NATO….

1 hour ago, mchughcb said:

Mass graves with crosses on them. You mean a Christian burial during war?

The suggestion that poorly trained young knuckle dragging Russian troops, convicts and mercenaries scooped from the four corners of the Evil empire could commit war crimes is just ridiculous right, like it couldn’t ever happen. I bet whatever evidence comes out is going to be all fabricated.

There, saved you the effort. 

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Another stupid comment, Ive said no such thing, and I thought you said I wasnt getting a dacha anymore ?

By your own standards that analogy doesnt apply , as it happened over 20 years ago.

But it didnt , because it had western backing from day 1.
But iTs nOt A prOxY wAr !

Yet no one is talking of a negotiated settlement !
They are talking about kicking the Russians out of Ukraine  'Whatever it takes' 
So when they get to the pro Russian areas of Donbass , at least Zelensky can keep his election promise of ending the Donbass civil war..
By killing or subjugating the residents who resist.

 

As above , the people of Donbass arent invading , what to do with them , send them back to Russia ?
Exterminate the 'orc' scum ?

Be very careful what you wish for , Ukrainian atrocities and ethnic cleansing arent myths to be ignored.
Theyve said they want the Russian language and culture removed from Ukraine, how far are they prepared to go to achieve this ?

Dunno where you’re wandering off to. This is about your constant bonkers cry that Ukraine shouldn’t be supported and armed. Well, just as well it didn’t happen else by now all Ukrainians would be speaking Russian.  

[Rewulf]

25 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Agreed. What it needs is Russia out and Ukraine being fast tracked into NATO….

Yeah, cos that won't cause any issues will it? 😂

 

20 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Dunno where you’re wandering off to. This is about your constant bonkers cry that Ukraine shouldn’t be supported and armed. Well, just as well it didn’t happen else by now all Ukrainians would be speaking Russian.  

You just don't listen, and your continued childish insults are just dropping down to gutter level. 

Quote me where I said they shouldn't be supported or armed at all. 

What I didn't like was the escalation into heavy weapon territory, that prolonged the war, and threatened an escalation that could, and still could, be very bad for us all. 

Don't forget,Ukraine  asking for a no fly zone, which would have lead to Russian vs NATO conflict. Do you think we should have done that. 

Do you think Ukraine is worth a direct conflict with Russia, that will affect you physically? 

So tell it straight, do you want this war to continue to the bitter end, and do you not think any of my suggestions for peace and reconciliation have any merit? 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Yeah, cos that won't cause any issues will it? 😂

 

You just don't listen, and your continued childish insults are just dropping down to gutter level. 

Quote me where I said they shouldn't be supported or armed at all. 

What I didn't like was the escalation into heavy weapon territory, that prolonged the war, and threatened an escalation that could, and still could, be very bad for us all. 

Don't forget,Ukraine  asking for a no fly zone, which would have lead to Russian vs NATO conflict. Do you think we should have done that. 

Do you think Ukraine is worth a direct conflict with Russia, that will affect you physically? 

So tell it straight, do you want this war to continue to the bitter end, and do you not think any of my suggestions for peace and reconciliation have any merit? 

No fly was declined for exactly that reason. Prolonged the war? You mean Ukraine were given the weapons to fight back? Nothing is worth direct conflict with Russia. NATO is not fighting Russia, Norh Korea is not fighting NATO. Ukraine and Russia are fighting the question is how far will Russia go rather than, is Ukraine worth direct conflict with Russia. The war needs to continue to the bitter end. If not where next? Taiwan? 

You cannot appease a bully no matter how painful.

Edited September 17, 2022 by oowee

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

No fly was declined for exactly that reason. Prolonged the war? You mean Ukraine were given the weapons to fight back?

Why did we do that? 

I don't remember any particular love affair with Ukraine, do you? 

There's one reason why Ukraine were given weapons and training, and that's for them to fight Russia. A country that before the 2014 coup, had no problem with them. 

If we are so caring, why don't we arm everyone who doesn't like Russia, just in case.? 

10 minutes ago, oowee said:

The war needs to continue to the bitter end. If not where next? Taiwan?

Easy for us to say, we aren't fighting it. 

Is arming Taiwan going to deter China? 

No, its going to infuriate and provoke them, until we get the Taiwanese to fight a {very short} proxy war for us too. 

The bitter end you speak might be the bitterest end you can imagine. 

China doesn't use small nukes, it doesn't have many, around 300 warheads, but each one is a 5 megaton city killer. 

Google what one 5mt groundburst would do to the UK. 

[ordnance]

37 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Why did we do that? 

I don't remember any particular love affair with Ukraine, do you? 

There's one reason why Ukraine were given weapons and training, and that's for them to fight Russia. A country that before the 2014 coup, had no problem with them. 

If we are so caring, why don't we arm everyone who doesn't like Russia, just in case.? 

Easy for us to say, we aren't fighting it. 

Is arming Taiwan going to deter China? 

No, its going to infuriate and provoke them, until we get the Taiwanese to fight a {very short} proxy war for us too. 

The bitter end you speak might be the bitterest end you can imagine. 

China doesn't use small nukes, it doesn't have many, around 300 warheads, but each one is a 5 megaton city killer. 

Google what one 5mt groundburst would do to the UK. 

And China would get a few thousand warheads in return, think you want about China but they are not stupid.

Edited September 17, 2022 by ordnance

[oowee]

44 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Why did we do that? 

I don't remember any particular love affair with Ukraine, do you? 

There's one reason why Ukraine were given weapons and training, and that's for them to fight Russia. A country that before the 2014 coup, had no problem with them. 

If we are so caring, why don't we arm everyone who doesn't like Russia, just in case.? 

Easy for us to say, we aren't fighting it. 

Is arming Taiwan going to deter China? 

No, its going to infuriate and provoke them, until we get the Taiwanese to fight a {very short} proxy war for us too. 

The bitter end you speak might be the bitterest end you can imagine. 

China doesn't use small nukes, it doesn't have many, around 300 warheads, but each one is a 5 megaton city killer. 

Google what one 5mt groundburst would do to the UK. 

Because its part of Europe and a NATO candidate.

Ukraine were given weapons to defend themselves. They were invaded. 

Arming Taiwan and Ukraine fighting back is already detering China. War is just not worth the cost. 

It might be the bitterest end but that wont be avoided by letting Russia or China run riot.