opinion is the start of the season too early?

[cash1]

14 minutes ago, captainhastings said:

Any restriction in any field sport from fishing to working dogs needs to be slapped right back down. Not a single inch should be given any where

Agree well said.

I've been fowling for over 50 years and the weather has always changed. Up here in the north of England we hardly ever get the nice weather experienced down south. Late springs short summers early autumns and lots of bloody rain.

[Essexfowler]

I go out on the 1st for tradition rather than pulling the trigger, I personally leave mallard alone until the 3rd week of September to allow “flappers” to mature and become stronger in flight. Typically my focus is on the greys in the area starting to attack some of the farmer’s early crops. 

In a normal year there are plenty of immature mallard on the small ponds which cause us to have a lot of flappers arrive onto the bigger lakes in the area once September arrives. However whilst observing a lake on the shoot that I manage, I noticed that all of the mallard on there were fairly mature and flew very well.

I believe this to be due to the severe heat of the summer which has dried up all the small ponds causing any paired mallard on them to have failed broods whilst any pairs on the larger lakes have had successful early broods causing birds to be mature more early in the month. Now I understand this is completely different in other areas this is just an observation and theory on my part.

I don’t believe seasons should be moved, as a community we should be able to show voluntary restraint when it comes to shooting. We do it currently with woodcock. Rather than be restricted we should take responsibility.

Its something I believe that we as wildfowlers should demonstrate, and clubs across the country should be able to demonstrate. Committees of clubs could surely be able to ask there members to hold off shooting immature birds and wait for a couple weeks. I’ve known a few clubs to restrict numbers of geese or mallard early season. It’s also not a bad time of year to do some bird counts, it’s good for the conservation books.

 

Cheers

EF

[marsh man]

Some very interesting views and conducted in a friendly manner , exactly how it should be , not everyone will agree , or disagree and at least we find out what other peoples thoughts are .

It is fine that early season shooting could be restricted at club level , that would only be on the land the club rent , or there own , it wouldn't affect the guys who are making big bucks out of paying guns who want to shoot wild fowl until it becomes law , they would be more than happy if the clubs nearby put off the start till later on in September , by then there would be very few local duck left to shoot .

I know of some big flight ponds not far from mine that attract 100s of duck , whoever thought them out certainly knew what they were doing , the ( ponds ) that are more like small lakes have been dug at different angles so some will shoot better than others in certain wind conditions , these are shot regular and a flight is often in three figures , these are also situated in a prime area that can hold a lot of wild fowl, Yes it do cost a fair bit to keep it fed but the money coming in would more than compensate for that .

I can well remember walking along the sea front near Ness Point at Lowertoft on the eve before the new millennium and wandering what the new decade will bring and how will it affect our sport , nearly twenty three later it have more or less kept the same and no doubt will still be the same when my days fowling will come to a close in the next year or so , but I bet a pound to a penny that changes will still be discussed .  

[Pushandpull]

The shooting of "reared" duck is not welcomed by many us who see it as a form of "canned hunting".

However, the shooting of large numbers of wild migratory birds on flight ponds is much harder to justify. especially to a neutral observer. We have (as noted in this discussion) long seasons and little or no restriction on bag sizes or methods of shooting - eg 24 hour shooting is permitted and so is feeding the birds to attract them. (In the USA this is "baiting" and is illegal as you are taking more than your share of the resource). The crazy thing is that Natural England can effectively ban wildfowling on an estuary, yet within a stone's throw there will be flight ponds taking many times the local fowlers' bag. We will never see the adaptive flyway management model that ought to be possible, and any new Wildlife and Countryside Act will inevitably bring confrontational arguments with shortened seasons and the loss of quarry species.

[Essexfowler]

1 hour ago, marsh man said:

Some very interesting views and conducted in a friendly manner , exactly how it should be , not everyone will agree , or disagree and at least we find out what other peoples thoughts are .

It is fine that early season shooting could be restricted at club level , that would only be on the land the club rent , or there own , it wouldn't affect the guys who are making big bucks out of paying guns who want to shoot wild fowl until it becomes law , they would be more than happy if the clubs nearby put off the start till later on in September , by then there would be very few local duck left to shoot .

I know of some big flight ponds not far from mine that attract 100s of duck , whoever thought them out certainly knew what they were doing , the ( ponds ) that are more like small lakes have been dug at different angles so some will shoot better than others in certain wind conditions , these are shot regular and a flight is often in three figures , these are also situated in a prime area that can hold a lot of wild fowl, Yes it do cost a fair bit to keep it fed but the money coming in would more than compensate for that .

I can well remember walking along the sea front near Ness Point at Lowertoft on the eve before the new millennium and wandering what the new decade will bring and how will it affect our sport , nearly twenty three later it have more or less kept the same and no doubt will still be the same when my days fowling will come to a close in the next year or so , but I bet a pound to a penny that changes will still be discussed .  

It’s great to be able to share views in such a way that’s more of a discussion than a debate.
 

Personally I believe that’s one issue we will face in the future, the inland flight ponds that do shoot the bigger bags. Don’t get me wrong I lease a flight lake however it’s shot on a very small scale maybe 6 - 10 times a season between family and nothing more than 15 - 20 birds at a time. We put in a lot of nesting tubes, we feed very small amounts, feed the songbirds, predator control and we keep records of bird numbers and bags. So i hope it’s seen as more of a sustainable shoot than one that just takes large bags wild stock.

Its just a shame on the marsh we are massively regulated and a stone throw in the wall there are the view who take the absolute mickey. 

It will be interesting to see how it all folds out.

[derbyduck]

On 04/09/2022 at 22:59, greenshank1 said:

I wonder if wildfowling clubs and individuals and shooting bodies lobbied for a new start date to the season due to climate change would we get good PR for the welfare benefits ? Or would we be cutting our own throats ? 
Or is not doing anything actually worse and giving antis more ammunition? 

We would just lose a month ! the birdie boys would agree to the 1st of October but not to extending the other end .

[marsh man]

1 hour ago, Essexfowler said:

It’s great to be able to share views in such a way that’s more of a discussion than a debate.
 

Personally I believe that’s one issue we will face in the future, the inland flight ponds that do shoot the bigger bags. Don’t get me wrong I lease a flight lake however it’s shot on a very small scale maybe 6 - 10 times a season between family and nothing more than 15 - 20 birds at a time. We put in a lot of nesting tubes, we feed very small amounts, feed the songbirds, predator control and we keep records of bird numbers and bags. So i hope it’s seen as more of a sustainable shoot than one that just takes large bags wild stock.

Its just a shame on the marsh we are massively regulated and a stone throw in the wall there are the view who take the absolute mickey. 

It will be interesting to see how it all folds out.

Again I have nothing against flight ponds , you know as well as I do that you have to treat flight ponds with respect and it is at your pearl if you shoot them to often and try and take to much from them , we had five where I worked and some wouldn't get shot at all and we only shot the odd one if one of the family guns wanted a flight when the days shoot finished which again wasn't that often .

Where I used to help out on a shooting I wouldn't take any payment as the chap who ran the shoot had gave me the odd day if a member had to call the day off , and gave me the go ahead to shoot his flight pond at the end of the days shoot , I would set my limit at four duck , normally a pair of Mallard and a pair of Teal and there duck in the pond all season

They were the good ones , now for the bad ones , I did once get an invite on a 200 bird day , brilliant , one of the drives was a duck drive from a smallish lake , this was at the back end of the season so you would think the duck would be street wise and know a trick or two about surviving , how wrong you would be by thinking this was the case , the duck just sat there while the guns were lined up around the water , a shot was fired and next to nothing moved , the chap then put a few up and a volley of shots were fired , the duck flew around in a circle and more were shot with the ones that wanted to get back to the safety of the water , I shot one duck going away and then stopped shooting as it was very poor quality shooting .

At one time I ran a very good rough shoot for around twenty years , the land owner was the salt of the earth and charged me a very fair price for the shoot , with my payment he treated himself to a days shooting on a different shoot each year , one year he bought himself a afternoon and evening duck shoot on well stocked pond , after a while he went back to the club house as he had shot more than enough and it was becoming a bit sickening , he told me they were still shooting heavy when it was to dark to see and the bag was in the 100s .

[Gerry78]

Agree with all the above posts ☝️I use a bit of restraint and don’t shoot to the middle of October It’s the same as fly fishing rivers for trout hot weather I don’t cast a line 

[Essexfowler]

28 minutes ago, marsh man said:

Again I have nothing against flight ponds , you know as well as I do that you have to treat flight ponds with respect and it is at your pearl if you shoot them to often and try and take to much from them , we had five where I worked and some wouldn't get shot at all and we only shot the odd one if one of the family guns wanted a flight when the days shoot finished which again wasn't that often .

Where I used to help out on a shooting I wouldn't take any payment as the chap who ran the shoot had gave me the odd day if a member had to call the day off , and gave me the go ahead to shoot his flight pond at the end of the days shoot , I would set my limit at four duck , normally a pair of Mallard and a pair of Teal and there duck in the pond all season

They were the good ones , now for the bad ones , I did once get an invite on a 200 bird day , brilliant , one of the drives was a duck drive from a smallish lake , this was at the back end of the season so you would think the duck would be street wise and know a trick or two about surviving , how wrong you would be by thinking this was the case , the duck just sat there while the guns were lined up around the water , a shot was fired and next to nothing moved , the chap then put a few up and a volley of shots were fired , the duck flew around in a circle and more were shot with the ones that wanted to get back to the safety of the water , I shot one duck going away and then stopped shooting as it was very poor quality shooting .

At one time I ran a very good rough shoot for around twenty years , the land owner was the salt of the earth and charged me a very fair price for the shoot , with my payment he treated himself to a days shooting on a different shoot each year , one year he bought himself a afternoon and evening duck shoot on well stocked pond , after a while he went back to the club house as he had shot more than enough and it was becoming a bit sickening , he told me they were still shooting heavy when it was to dark to see and the bag was in the 100s .

What I would do to get myself a nice little rough shoot for friends and family to spend the day out in the country, working the dogs and a hope of a shot, sounds like you were a lucky man MM.
 

Those are the ones that do us no good, the folks like us understand what’s fair, the shoots that take large bags of released and wild duck are detrimental to wildfowling/duck flighting. Personally not a massive fan of released duck, difficult to get to fly well, eat an awful lot, not very sporting, and have the potential to damage water/soil quality if no other option of ponds are available.

Just has a quick wander round the sea wall, plenty of teal  are on the move, how are they fairing in your area? I hear the British populations have had great breeding success this year.

[scolopax]

22 hours ago, marsh man said:

I think you would stand more chance winning the lottery jackpot than to shoot a wild English Partridge , it have now been many years since I last walked Partridges up , Same with French Partridges , you would think with all the Partridge shoots around our way that a few pairs get down the marsh and bring up the odd brood , but they don't and you can go years without dropping onto one , how true this is I don't know but the keeper once told me a French Partridge only live for around three to five years .

Still we are nearly through the first week of the new wildfowling season and I am looking forward to the first report of a good flight , although with it reaching 27 degrees today they would have to get a move on processing any geese shot and anything else come to that .

You will be pleased to know that from what I have heard, and seen myself to some extent, wild Grey Partridge have had a phenomenon breeding season, with many big coveys reported. Sad thing is most places had so little breeding stock to start with, if any, but as said if they had some pairs they have in the main done incredibly well.  It has just emphasised to me how very important the weather is to there breeding success. 
 

I will add in hushed tones, the wild Greys are almost exclusively away from the big keepered shoots. In my own opinion they are obviously incompatible with large scale releases of Redlegs and possibly even pheasants. The big shoots just do not have any, a few miles away on unkeepered farmland there will be a few pairs, not many, but they will be there.

[marsh man]

1 hour ago, Essexfowler said:

What I would do to get myself a nice little rough shoot for friends and family to spend the day out in the country, working the dogs and a hope of a shot, sounds like you were a lucky man MM.
 

Those are the ones that do us no good, the folks like us understand what’s fair, the shoots that take large bags of released and wild duck are detrimental to wildfowling/duck flighting. Personally not a massive fan of released duck, difficult to get to fly well, eat an awful lot, not very sporting, and have the potential to damage water/soil quality if no other option of ponds are available.

Just has a quick wander round the sea wall, plenty of teal  are on the move, how are they fairing in your area? I hear the British populations have had great breeding success this year.

On the local marshes I shoot the Teal are nearly non existing as the marshes are still rock hard and no sign of water , the dykes hold a few duck and with all the livestock still grazing they don't get touched , Wigeon will start arriving in small numbers any day now and no doubt there might already be a few on the estuary , we expect to see the first skeins of Pinks arrive around the last week of September , going by the large amount of Greylags around the Broads I would imagine the local populations have done well. Canada's are one goose I haven't got a lot of time for , as for eating I find them pretty poor and all the people I used to give the odd one are now long gone , so if they come past during the season they are perfectly safe to continue on there journey . 

[marsh man]

31 minutes ago, scolopax said:

You will be pleased to know that from what I have heard, and seen myself to some extent, wild Grey Partridge have had a phenomenon breeding season, with many big coveys reported. Sad thing is most places had so little breeding stock to start with, if any, but as said if they had some pairs they have in the main done incredibly well.  It has just emphasised to me how very important the weather is to there breeding success. 
 

I will add in hushed tones, the wild Greys are almost exclusively away from the big keepered shoots. In my own opinion they are obviously incompatible with large scale releases of Redlegs and possibly even pheasants. The big shoots just do not have any, a few miles away on unkeepered farmland there will be a few pairs, not many, but they will be there.

I would imagine if we had a few pairs of Grey's on the marshes we would have had a bumper year with the long hot Summer we have just had , in 1976 we had Partridges everywhere , me and my brother got an invite on a farm near me to have a afternoon walk and stand at driven Partridges , the land now is an industrial estate and believe it or not I still shoot the land up to the edge of the estate , that Summer was the same as we just had and the conditions must had been ideal for bringing up wild Partridge , the farmer had a field of Spuds and every row we were walking there were covey's getting up into double figures , when we finished and got back to the farm we laid them out and we had shot over 90 , as a footnote , before we laid them out the farmer fired a shot into the air to put up the big number of Collard doves , these produced ten minutes of good shooting to finish the day off .

Now with the land being a industrial estate and all the marshes are for hay and grazing , the days of wild Partridge shooting are gone , although I did hear the Holkham estate up in N / Norfolk have got good numbers and might well have enough to put on a day .

Good Luck in putting a brace now and again in the bag , one thing you might be able to tell me , How can a game dealer tell the difference between a reared and wild English Partridge , I know that when we had a lot of Partridge shoots we did put down about 50 Greys , the guns were told to leave them alone but the odd one ended up in the bag , now and again I took the birds to the dealer and the chap knew straight away it was a reared one and not a wild bird .

[Essexfowler]

33 minutes ago, marsh man said:

On the local marshes I shoot the Teal are nearly non existing as the marshes are still rock hard and no sign of water , the dykes hold a few duck and with all the livestock still grazing they don't get touched , Wigeon will start arriving in small numbers any day now and no doubt there might already be a few on the estuary , we expect to see the first skeins of Pinks arrive around the last week of September , going by the large amount of Greylags around the Broads I would imagine the local populations have done well. Canada's are one goose I haven't got a lot of time for , as for eating I find them pretty poor and all the people I used to give the odd one are now long gone , so if they come past during the season they are perfectly safe to continue on there journey .
 

. 

Thats very interesting regarding your number of teal, id have thought your area would have a good number of them due to all the large reservoirs, lakes and dykes

 

We expect the odd wigeon by the third week of September typically, Teal are none existent until the final week of August then see, to have a steady increase through the season.
I’m wondering how this season will turn out, due to lots of ponds and dykes bring bone dry will we see an increase of fowl out on the marshes or will they be heading inland toward the large reservoirs ?

[Gas seal]

Hi krico wildfowl clubs have made and removed restrictions on shooting for years and it works. It’s better to restrict your self than have restrictions placed upon you. We have resident woodcock and lost a lot of woodcock mainly to disturbance by dog walkers. I would never shoot woodcock until late November. I would shoot flighting woodcock before lamping rabbits. I don’t shoot woodcock now or grey partridge I would prefer to watch them , we have a lot of partridge maybe because they are not shot. A commercial shooting estate nearby doesn’t shoot woodcock. A lot of partridge and woodcock are in the ground of disused factories . A lot of these places are full of wildlife. 

[marsh man]

8 minutes ago, Essexfowler said:

Thats very interesting regarding your number of teal, id have thought your area would have a good number of them due to all the large reservoirs, lakes and dykes

 

We expect the odd wigeon by the third week of September typically, Teal are none existent until the final week of August then see, to have a steady increase through the season.
I’m wondering how this season will turn out, due to lots of ponds and dykes bring bone dry will we see an increase of fowl out on the marshes or will they be heading inland toward the large reservoirs ?

Time will tell , but sooner or later we will get the rains that other people in the UK are getting , when I got home this afternoon I put the tele on and they were waiting for the new P M in London and it was pouring yet here the sun was out and still in the 20s.

A lot of our marshes have got scrapes on to encourage wildfowl on when we get the rain , some of the dykes have got dams in to alter the water level and help to flood the marsh , this is when the duck take an interest , same where the livestock have been grazing , they eat the grass that short you can see an inch of water lay on the marsh , we can shoot while the horses are on but I leave it till they are off as you have to be weary when they follow you and your dog , last year I made a start around the third week of October when one or two splashes had appeared and some of the horses had been taken off , I can remember it well as it was the first time I had got a drake Pintail in full condition with my first shot of the season , as it turned out I never got another drake for the rest of the season , below is the bag for the first flight of last season .

  

[scolopax]

39 minutes ago, marsh man said:

I would imagine if we had a few pairs of Grey's on the marshes we would have had a bumper year with the long hot Summer we have just had , in 1976 we had Partridges everywhere , me and my brother got an invite on a farm near me to have a afternoon walk and stand at driven Partridges , the land now is an industrial estate and believe it or not I still shoot the land up to the edge of the estate , that Summer was the same as we just had and the conditions must had been ideal for bringing up wild Partridge , the farmer had a field of Spuds and every row we were walking there were covey's getting up into double figures , when we finished and got back to the farm we laid them out and we had shot over 90 , as a footnote , before we laid them out the farmer fired a shot into the air to put up the big number of Collard doves , these produced ten minutes of good shooting to finish the day off .

Now with the land being a industrial estate and all the marshes are for hay and grazing , the days of wild Partridge shooting are gone , although I did hear the Holkham estate up in N / Norfolk have got good numbers and might well have enough to put on a day .

Good Luck in putting a brace now and again in the bag , one thing you might be able to tell me , How can a game dealer tell the difference between a reared and wild English Partridge , I know that when we had a lot of Partridge shoots we did put down about 50 Greys , the guns were told to leave them alone but the odd one ended up in the bag , now and again I took the birds to the dealer and the chap knew straight away it was a reared one and not a wild bird .

Not a 100% certain way but as far as I remember, grey partridge kept in a release pen will have tattered/ abraded wing tips. Wild birds will have smooth un damaged wing tips, pointed tip for young birds, rounded for adult.

[marsh man]

18 minutes ago, scolopax said:

Not a 100% certain way but as far as I remember, grey partridge kept in a release pen will have tattered/ abraded wing tips. Wild birds will have smooth un damaged wing tips, pointed tip for young birds, rounded for adult.

You could be right , I know that when I used to walk up the Grey partridges the first thing I looked at was the wing tips , if they were pointed I knew they would make good money at the dealers and you could get a decent bit of steak for the proceeds off a young Partridge .

[Penelope]

14 hours ago, Essexfowler said:

Thats very interesting regarding your number of teal, id have thought your area would have a good number of them due to all the large reservoirs, lakes and dykes

 

We expect the odd wigeon by the third week of September typically, Teal are none existent until the final week of August then see, to have a steady increase through the season.
I’m wondering how this season will turn out, due to lots of ponds and dykes bring bone dry will we see an increase of fowl out on the marshes or will they be heading inland toward the large reservoirs ?

I saw my first Teal, two weeks ok, over a lake near Maldon. A bunch of sevem.

[marsh man]

2 hours ago, Penelope said:

I saw my first Teal, two weeks ok, over a lake near Maldon. A bunch of sevem.

Only ever saw one brood of Teal in the dykes in all the time I have been wandering around the marshes , same with Shoveler , I have shot both species in the past in early September but never seen one brood of Shoveler brought up from the hatching stage ,

We have got a fair size lake on the estate that is two miles long and talking to the lake keeper many years ago he told me that very few, if any young duck are brought up on the lake as the Pike eat the young ones , he was saying he once watched an ole Canada goose going across the lake with a brood of half grown goslings and a large Pike came up and took out the back one and that was game over , I am talking about Pike over 20 lb and in the hotel there was a stuffed one in a case that was nearer to 30 lb .

[Essexfowler]

4 hours ago, Penelope said:

I saw my first Teal, two weeks ok, over a lake near Maldon. A bunch of sevem.

I must have missed them, im more near Thames area. I’ve personally never seen them until the last few days of August. Do you reckon they migrated or bred in the area?

[Penelope]

26 minutes ago, Essexfowler said:

I must have missed them, im more near Thames area. I’ve personally never seen them until the last few days of August. Do you reckon they migrated or bred in the area?

Migrants. I saw a pair last week too.

[Essexfowler]

27 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Migrants. I saw a pair last week too.

I counted 5 on the 30th August, roughly 20 on the 1st and last night I see a total of 30 whizzing over the marshes. Definitely moving in quickly, hopefully the wigeon are not too far behind them.

[scolopax]

On 06/09/2022 at 15:28, Pushandpull said:

The shooting of "reared" duck is not welcomed by many us who see it as a form of "canned hunting".

However, the shooting of large numbers of wild migratory birds on flight ponds is much harder to justify. especially to a neutral observer. We have (as noted in this discussion) long seasons and little or no restriction on bag sizes or methods of shooting - eg 24 hour shooting is permitted and so is feeding the birds to attract them. (In the USA this is "baiting" and is illegal as you are taking more than your share of the resource). The crazy thing is that Natural England can effectively ban wildfowling on an estuary, yet within a stone's throw there will be flight ponds taking many times the local fowlers' bag. We will never see the adaptive flyway management model that ought to be possible, and any new Wildlife and Countryside Act will inevitably bring confrontational arguments with shortened seasons and the loss of quarry species.

Could not agree more. Many of these enterprises are totally commercial where migratory duck are attracted to fed ponds to be shot purely for someone’s financial gain. 

Teal can be an early migrant with the first crossing the North Sea in early/ mid august, the first Pintail and Wigeon are not usually far behind. In the past we have seen tremendous numbers of Teal on the first September. I had first flight on the 3rd this season and saw three good lots of wigeon and one lot of Pintail heading high west in the classic V, no doubt birds which were continuing on over the Pennines to Lancashire or even Ireland.

[guy baxendale]

I would willingly trade September for February, although agree that we should give nothing up without a fight. That has been proven with the removal of quarry species off the list never to return. Make no bones about it that NE have their eye on Pintail and Pochard next.

I made a very rare (for me) September outing last week, 23 degrees and thousands of mossies wasnt my idea of fun. Just a tiny handful of Mallard about (i did get one), the marsh seemed quiet without the chorus of waders and didnt even smell 'right' (that might have been my imagination!), i will leave it another month before heading back unless we get an early gale.

I do seem to have a couple of lots of Teal and Gadwall visiting my pond - not sure if they are resident or migrants. They will be left quiet for at least another month as well.

 

[marsh man]

2 hours ago, guy baxendale said:

I would willingly trade September for February, although agree that we should give nothing up without a fight. That has been proven with the removal of quarry species off the list never to return. Make no bones about it that NE have their eye on Pintail and Pochard next.

I made a very rare (for me) September outing last week, 23 degrees and thousands of mossies wasnt my idea of fun. Just a tiny handful of Mallard about (i did get one), the marsh seemed quiet without the chorus of waders and didnt even smell 'right' (that might have been my imagination!), i will leave it another month before heading back unless we get an early gale.

I do seem to have a couple of lots of Teal and Gadwall visiting my pond - not sure if they are resident or migrants. They will be left quiet for at least another month as well.

 

I think most of us are beginning to agree that the 1st of September is to early now the global climate is taking a hold , yes we have got a choice weather we go out in earnest and pull the trigger and most of the members who I have spoken haven't bothered and are waiting for things to cool off a bit, and a few migrants start coming in to the area .

So no one lose nothing and the inland boys get better sport for the last three weeks than the first three , then why can't the coastal still keep the opening and closing the same and the inland boys start on the 20th of Sept and finish the same day as our hardy friends on the coast , this would then give the late broods a extra three weeks to get on the wing and to stop the big toll taking on flight pond shooting , they are used to having 20 days without us at the end of the season , so why can't they have 20 days at the beginning without us , like that nobody have lost nothing and the season haven't been extended