Pulling triggers on empty barrels

[JohnfromUK]

Its a very old topic is snapcaps - and views on both sides.  Personally I'm with @arjimlad in the

36 minutes ago, arjimlad said:

The only use I have for snap caps is testing ejectors & trigger pulls.

camp, but having had 3 mainsprings break (3 different guns) in the last 5 years has made me wonder .........

The only double barrelled shotgun I can think of where the manufacturers state no need for snapcaps is the Darne - where the firing mechanism is more like a bolt action type anyway.

[Westley]

54 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Its a very old topic is snapcaps - and views on both sides.  Personally I'm with @arjimlad in the

camp, but having had 3 mainsprings break (3 different guns) in the last 5 years has made me wonder .........

The only double barrelled shotgun I can think of where the manufacturers state no need for snapcaps is the Darne - where the firing mechanism is more like a bolt action type anyway.

Were the mainspring V springs or coil springs  ?   I have both. The V springs I use snap caps for, the coil springs I don't bother, worked OK for me for some 60 + years.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Westley

[ditchman]

springs are springs ............everytime you use the car you dont relieve the valve springs when you get home...........

[JohnfromUK]

28 minutes ago, Westley said:

Were the mainspring V springs or coil springs  ?   I have both. The V springs I use snap caps for, the coil springs I don't bother, worked OK for me for some 60 + years.

All V springs;

The first was a Merkel 203E (sidelock).  Sudden failure whist clays shooting.

The second was an AyA No 1.  Strictly didn't fail - but the claw on the end that hooks over the swivel had one finger broken (gun still usable) but obviously a failure in waiting.  Possible cause was a crack in the tumbler where it hooks over the swivel which may have caused the swivel to 'twist' slightly in operation.  Spring, tumbler and swivel were all replaced as a precaution.

The third was a Merkel 303E (sidelock).  Again, sudden failure whilst clays shooting.  The previous owner had had one spring replaced - so it may have been a replacement, or may have been the other original.  I don't know. 

The AyA is about 45 years old, the Merkel 303 about 30 years old and I think the 203 slightly older.

[enfieldspares]

On 14/11/2022 at 22:31, Scully said:

We were initially taught to shoot .22rf and .303 in the cadets by dry firing, and a visiting coach to our club told us dry firing our handguns was an invaluable aid to good technique. 

On Webley revolvers where the hammer hits the back of the frame if there is no cartridge in the chamber it's a bad thing to do. It can, yes, cause damage to the hammer which is why leather fitted slip over hammer protectors were marketed. On the two great American late 19th and earl 20th Century "modern" double action revolver designs...Smith's and Colt's...it was never an issue. But on a Webley try and avoid if possible! 

[enfieldspares]

On 15/11/2022 at 11:37, Westley said:

Because I have personally witnessed too many 'incidents' where the snap caps have 'gone off'.

This! Always! And for the reason said. I am honest enough to admit having done it myself with a Smith & Wesson Model 29 in .44 Magnum. Bullet through the back of a wardrobe and into the wall behind. Snap caps/drill rounds again the cause. You get used to putting something into the cylinder and eventually the brain shuts off and you put a live cartridge in. It is why the British Army stopped using the notorious "aiming disc" with (or without) drill rounds.

Edited November 16, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Westley]

2 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

This! Always! And for the reason said. I am honest enough to admit having done it myself with a Smith & Wesson Model 29 in .44 Magnum. Bullet through the back of a wardrobe and into the wall behind. Snap caps/drill rounds again the cause. You get used to putting something into the cylinder and eventually the brain shuts off and you put a live cartridge in. It is why the British Army stopped using the notorious "aiming disc" with (or without) drill rounds.

I don't think even I could miss at that range       😄

[Westley]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

All V springs;

The first was a Merkel 203E (sidelock).  Sudden failure whist clays shooting.

The second was an AyA No 1.  Strictly didn't fail - but the claw on the end that hooks over the swivel had one finger broken (gun still usable) but obviously a failure in waiting.  Possible cause was a crack in the tumbler where it hooks over the swivel which may have caused the swivel to 'twist' slightly in operation.  Spring, tumbler and swivel were all replaced as a precaution.

The third was a Merkel 303E (sidelock).  Again, sudden failure whilst clays shooting.  The previous owner had had one spring replaced - so it may have been a replacement, or may have been the other original.  I don't know. 

The AyA is about 45 years old, the Merkel 303 about 30 years old and I think the 203 slightly older.

I believe that there is every justification for the use of snap caps with V springs, especially the likes of my 2 S x S guns that only come out 3 or 4 times a year. But apart from testing ejectors or trigger pulls, I have never seen the need for them in coil spring guns. However they are used, they should be left AT HOME .

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Westley said:

I believe that there is every justification for the use of snap caps with V springs, especially the likes of my 2 S x S guns that only come out 3 or 4 times a year. But apart from testing ejectors or trigger pulls, I have never seen the need for them in coil spring guns. However they are used, they should be left AT HOME .

Well in over 45 years of owning guns, those are the only three I have had break.  It just happens that it has all happened in a short period.  The ejector springs are always cocked and not easy to manually cock/uncock on many systems if you don't know what you are doing.  I've never had one of them go either.

[Westley]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

Well in over 45 years of owning guns, those are the only three I have had break.  It just happens that it has all happened in a short period.  The ejector springs are always cocked and not easy to manually cock/uncock on many systems if you don't know what you are doing.  I've never had one of them go either.

Nope, nor me. My Westley was occasionally ejecting both cartridges after just one had been fired, but that was wear in a small part at the front of the action. Blob of weld on the back of it and some deft hand filing sorted it  !

[Gunman]

On 14/11/2022 at 21:51, tonyshooter said:

I only use snap caps.

A gunsmith instilled this on me 45 years ago !

Did he then go on to sell you some snap caps ?

[Gunman]

On 14/11/2022 at 21:41, Townie said:

Admiring a fine 1930s English boxlock on Saturday. When resleeving, the owner pulled the triggers on empty barrels to ease the springs. Not the first time I've seen this done.

I'd never do this because of the damage it may cause, but that set me wondering what harm it can do. 

Anyone come across anything? 

 

 

This is an old argument that will never be settled so comes down to personal choice .

OK it is possible that a striker or firing pin may break ,but more likely on an O/U where there is frequently bigger differential in diameters of the spiker .

May be relieving the tension on the main springs , which will still be under some tension may help , but the ejector springs will still be under full compression .

Snap caps ? well the juries still out on that one , I always used once fired cases when testing ejectors and pulls as some snap caps IMHO do more damage than good .

Having worked in the gun trade  for 48 year , I have dry fired shotguns of all makes on many many occasions without any problem what so ever [ double rifles with much smaller strikers are another thing ] and do not see any problem in doing so occasionally , I found in my experience you are more or as likely to break an extractor head off when opening an empty fired gun .

[Scully]

26 minutes ago, Gunman said:

This is an old argument that will never be settled so comes down to personal choice .

OK it is possible that a striker or firing pin may break ,but more likely on an O/U where there is frequently bigger differential in diameters of the spiker .

May be relieving the tension on the main springs , which will still be under some tension may help , but the ejector springs will still be under full compression .

Snap caps ? well the juries still out on that one , I always used once fired cases when testing ejectors and pulls as some snap caps IMHO do more damage than good .

Having worked in the gun trade  for 48 year , I have dry fired shotguns of all makes on many many occasions without any problem what so ever [ double rifles with much smaller strikers are another thing ] and do not see any problem in doing so occasionally , I found in my experience you are more or as likely to break an extractor head off when opening an empty fired gun .

Sense at last! Thankyou. 
There's a little video in another thread about the Ruger Red label, where the American gun writer reviewing the gun pulls both triggers-one after the other-on an empty gun. 🤷‍♂️

[tonyshooter]

53 minutes ago, Gunman said:

Did he then go on to sell you some snap caps ?

Yes definitely, as well as a first rate gunsmith he was a very good salesman !