Crazy police stop.I didnt think it was real at first !

[welsh1]

44 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Random stops are very rare , and require a special reason , eg Xmas drink drive blitz ect.

Generally speaking a road side stop requires a reason that a crime has or potentially will be committed.

Under the road traffic act your vehicle can be stopped at any time for any reason, they can simply ask for your insurance.

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Random stops are very rare , and require a special reason , eg Xmas drink drive blitz ect.

Generally speaking a road side stop requires a reason that a crime has or potentially will be committed.

Under the road traffic act your vehicle can be stopped at any time for any reason, they can simply ask for your insurance.

The devils in the detail I suppose , but 'generally' the police use a reason to pull you over and ask for details ect.
A good reason for asking for insurance details is the fact that the car is not showing on the MID , there could well be a perfectly good explanation for this ie , the car has only just been put on the system , or a clerical error at the insurance company.
To pull someone for no apparent reason and demand documentation may well be legal , but in my experience very rarely happens, as it leads to accusations of profiling ect.
Reasons can be genuine or creative, 'You were going a little fast Sir'  or  'I believed you driving to be erratic'
Right back to the old chestnut, 'Your tail light is a little dim Sir , blow into this bag for me'

[Rem260]

41 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I feel for you , my sister lives in Harrow , as house prices go up , the area goes down , its mind boggling how bad its getting.

 

Well yes .
If they werent crimes , they wouldnt be able to fine you or give you points ?
The fact they are dealt with by Fixed penalties, doesnt mean they dont get put on your record as a conviction/crime.

Wow !  Brake light not working and your a criminal.

Can you also tell me what record these type of offences are put on ?? 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Rem260

[Rewulf]

44 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

Wow !  Brake light not working and your a criminal.

A brake light out can result in a fine and 3 penalty points, Ill leave it to your imagination what record  that would go on.
To have this happen is rare, it usually results in a notice to rectify, get caught again not fixing it then those points are coming your way.
Im sort of thinking you dont believe crimes like not wearing seatbelts , defective vehicles ect dont get logged on the PNC ?

If I was you I wouldnt put that to a stress test.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Rewulf

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, Rem260 said:

Are you saying that you view minor motoring offences as crimes ? Defective lights. Non standard licence plate, No seat belt, bald tyre etcetera. As I would say that most traffic stops come under this capacity.

They are when you come to renew your FAC. 

[welsh1]

14 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

They are when you come to renew your FAC. 

You don't have to declare fixed penalty or parking fines

Seat belt fixed penalty.

Number plate fixed penalty

bald tyre fixed penalty

 

Of course all the above could have bigger penalties and convictions depending on the severity, but in general it is dealt with at the roadside with a fixed penalty.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, welsh1 said:

Of course all the above could have bigger penalties and convictions depending on the severity, but in general it is dealt with at the roadside with a fixed penalty.

Apart from parking fines , but 

Seat belt fixed penalty.

Number plate fixed penalty

bald tyre fixed penalty

ALL carry 3 point penalties, and drivers are regularly given them for it, I cant speak for other force areas, but Notts want to know about speeding fines and points, and if you lose your driving licence through accruing points, you will also lose your FAC/SGC too.

[welsh1]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Apart from parking fines , but 

Seat belt fixed penalty.

Number plate fixed penalty

bald tyre fixed penalty

ALL carry 3 point penalties, and drivers are regularly given them for it, I cant speak for other force areas, but Notts want to know about speeding fines and points, and if you lose your driving licence through accruing points, you will also lose your FAC/SGC too.

Basc disagree with you about fixed penalty notices
"For purposes of the Firearms Acts there is no such thing as a spent conviction. You must include all convictions, including ALL motoring offences except fixed penalty and parking tickets, whether still recorded on your driving licence or otherwise - whether in Britain or abroad. Informal Cautions do not need to be mentioned, but formal written cautions and conditional or absolute discharges do."

And here is one for you, all i have ever put on my first application and all subsequent renewals is
"Please check all police systems and records"
They have never said anything and obviously do as my feo has a big print out off their systems when he visits.

[Rem260]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

1)A brake light out can result in a fine and 3 penalty points, Ill leave it to your imagination what record  that would go on.
To have this happen is rare, it usually results in a notice to rectify, get caught again not fixing it then those points are coming your way.
2)Im sort of thinking you dont believe crimes like not wearing seatbelts , defective vehicles ect dont get logged on the PNC ?

If I was you I wouldnt put that to a stress test.

1)A brake light out does no attract 3 penalty points.

2) No they don't. I think you need to check what a non recordable offence is and which offences carry penalty points.

Do you also still think that people who have a defective brake light are criminals. You usually research your subject well but on this occasion your Google/barrack room lawyer has let you down.

[Rem260]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

They are when you come to renew your FAC. 

They don't look at them as crimes. They are looking at your character in regards to obeying the rules and your honesty in declaring them.

[Rewulf]

44 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Basc disagree with you about fixed penalty notices

BASC dont administer firearms certs or laws ?
Besides, thats not what I said , I said speeding offences must be declared in Notts, its right at top of the app/renewal form.

46 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

"For purposes of the Firearms Acts there is no such thing as a spent conviction. You must include all convictions, including ALL motoring offences except fixed penalty and parking tickets, whether still recorded on your driving licence or otherwise - whether in Britain or abroad. Informal Cautions do not need to be mentioned, but formal written cautions and conditional or absolute discharges do."

 

48 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

And here is one for you, all i have ever put on my first application and all subsequent renewals is
"Please check all police systems and records"

I believe you , but Ive discussed this with FEOs at length , and in Notts they use it as a test of honesty on first application, so wont wash here.

 

10 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

1)A brake light out does no attract 3 penalty points.

2) No they don't. I think you need to check what a non recordable offence is and which offences carry penalty points.

 I think you need to get down off the soap box , do some googling , and get back to me.
 

11 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

Do you also still think that people who have a defective brake light are criminals. You usually research your subject well but on this occasion your Google/barrack room lawyer has let you down.

Where did I use that term in that context.
Driving a motor vehicle that has defects , lights , tyres , bits missing , is ILLEGAL.
That means you are breaking the law , and are liable to prosecution and possible conviction.
If the police , local authority or DVLA issue a fixed penalty, and possible points, as an alternative to court , do you not think this fine or points doesnt get logged onto the system, bearing in mind these points can last for years ?

What is it youre trying to say ?
You get a motoring fine via FPN , pay it , then everyone forgets about it ?

[Rem260]

6 hours ago, Rem260 said:

Not all traffic stops are where the officer believes a crime may have been committed. 

This what I said

 You replied.

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Generally speaking a road side stop requires a reason that a crime has or potentially will be committed

Well yes .
If they werent crimes , they wouldnt be able to fine you or give you points ?
The fact they are dealt with by Fixed penalties, doesnt mean they dont get put on your record as a conviction/crime.

55 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Where did I use that term in that context.  See above or are you really saying criminals only commit certain types of crime.
Driving a motor vehicle that has defects , lights , tyres , bits missing , is ILLEGAL.
That means you are breaking the law , and are liable to prosecution and possible conviction.
If the police , local authority or DVLA issue a fixed penalty, and possible points, as an alternative to court , do you not think this fine or points doesnt get logged onto the system, bearing in mind these points can last for years ?

What is it youre trying to say ?
You get a motoring fine via FPN , pay it , then everyone forgets about it ?

I am saying you have your facts wrong and are talking utter tosh into what is recorded on PNC. You have no idea of what a non recordable offence is. Show me anywhere you have evidence that a Defective brake light incurs penalty points on your licence. Even if taken to court it still won't incur points.

As for Soap box . Pot calling kettle springs to mind.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Rem260

[Gordon R]

The Policeman concerned seems ill at ease dealing with someone who won't be intimidated or bullied. He constantly talks over them and refuses to let me offer their side of the story. Whilst the first example seemed a bit full of himself, the second did not. 

I have friends in the Police and have dealt with hundreds more. This person is not representative of the best Police Force in the World. The television is full of Police programmes and the officers in them conduct themselves with a bit more class and authority, without needing to shout. In short, they establish control of the situation without resorting to aggression and or pulling out a baton.

[Rewulf]

53 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

Show me anywhere you have evidence that a Defective brake light incurs penalty points on your licence. Even if taken to court it still won't incur points

Brake lights

As far as your brake lights are concerned, make sure they’re working and keep them clean.

As well as the safety issues, you’re likely to get pulled over sharpish if something isn’t working. If you do get pulled over by the police you may just get a verbal warning, but you could also get:

• a fixed penalty notice - a £60 fine and three points on your licence

• a Vehicle Defect Rectification Notice - 14 days to fix the fault and provide proof of the fix

• your car taken off the road immediately

  55 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

  am saying you have your facts wrong and are talking utter tosh into what is recorded on PNC. You have no idea of what a non recordable offence is.

  So if a car is pulled for a fault, and driver fails to correct the fault, the police upon pulling the car vehicle again for said fault, will have no record of the first pull and why? 🤣

Tyres being under the legal limit can incur 3 points EACH BTW, 4 bald tyres could equal driving ban. 

[Westley]

7 hours ago, Vince Green said:

To me it still comes down to why didn't the driver just get out of the car and produce identification and insurance documents when first stopped?

 

Thank you, at last someone with some common sense.

19 hours ago, eddoakley said:

Wasn't going to comment on this thread but are you sure you want to stand by your statement? 

Paraphrasing obviously but basically " I found stuff in other vehicles so I'd open the door of completely different vehicle by any means" ?

 

Edd

 

That is NOT quite what I said. 

[Rewulf]

Just now, Westley said:

Thank you, at last someone with some common sense.

He wasn't obliged to get out of the car for this type of stop! 

And once his details have been confirmed, he can produce his documents at a police station of his choosing. 

If 'common sense' means supporting power tripping, incoherent officers, then I'm glad I don't have any. 

[Vince Green]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

And once his details have been confirmed, he can produce his documents at a police station of his choosing. 

 

How are they going to confirm his details if he doesn't produce some evidence to back it up?

They are certainly not going to just take his word for it are they? 

Yes officer my name is Micky Mouse and I live at no 10 Downing Street 

[Mungler]

55 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

The Policeman concerned seems ill at ease dealing with someone who won't be intimidated or bullied. He constantly talks over them and refuses to let me offer their side of the story. Whilst the first example seemed a bit full of himself, the second did not. 

I have friends in the Police and have dealt with hundreds more. This person is not representative of the best Police Force in the World. The television is full of Police programmes and the officers in them conduct themselves with a bit more class and authority, without needing to shout. In short, they establish control of the situation without resorting to aggression and or pulling out a baton.

This.

My best man was / is a copper as too a number of my close mates and I can say that not one of them would have approached the situation like we’ve seen - they are far calmer and self assured.

[Rem260]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Brake lights

As far as your brake lights are concerned, make sure they’re working and keep them clean.

As well as the safety issues, you’re likely to get pulled over sharpish if something isn’t working. If you do get pulled over by the police you may just get a verbal warning, but you could also get:

• a fixed penalty notice - a £60 fine and three points on your licence

• a Vehicle Defect Rectification Notice - 14 days to fix the fault and provide proof of the fix

• your car taken off the road immediately

  So if a car is pulled for a fault, and driver fails to correct the fault, the police upon pulling the car vehicle again for said fault, will have no record of the first pull and why? 🤣

Tyres being under the legal limit can incur 3 points EACH BTW, 4 bald tyres could equal driving ban. 

So we have now changed it to the plural Brake lights. Which could then change the offence to Having a vehicle in a dangerous condition. Which incurs penalty points. However this would then negate the offence of defective Brake light(s). As this would be deemed as having 2 bites of the same cherry. Still you must have looked long and hard to find your quoted text which is misleading at best. Or did you get it from your mate on Piston Heads. 

Why have you now injected bald tyres into the mix?

[Scully]

4 hours ago, welsh1 said:

Basc disagree with you about fixed penalty notices
"For purposes of the Firearms Acts there is no such thing as a spent conviction. You must include all convictions, including ALL motoring offences except fixed penalty and parking tickets, whether still recorded on your driving licence or otherwise - whether in Britain or abroad. Informal Cautions do not need to be mentioned, but formal written cautions and conditional or absolute discharges do."

And here is one for you, all i have ever put on my first application and all subsequent renewals is
"Please check all police systems and records"
They have never said anything and obviously do as my feo has a big print out off their systems when he visits.

Ditto. Since my initial application I have only written in the relevant space …..nothing since last renewal. 
Edited to add: my speeding offence from last July does not have to be declared to insurers or firearms licensing authorities due to me undertaking a speed awareness course. 👍

Edited January 13, 2023 by Scully

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

How are they going to confirm his details if he doesn't produce some evidence to back it up?

They are certainly not going to just take his word for it are they?

Best just throw him in the cells then? 

 

36 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

So we have now changed it to the plural Brake lights. Which could then change the offence to Having a vehicle in a dangerous condition.

Sigh * OK, you can drive around with defects on your car, and no one's bothered about it. 

 

37 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

. Still you must have looked long and hard to find your quoted text which is misleading at best. Or did you get it from your mate on Piston Heads

Legal advice section from moneysupermarket. I'm sure if you trawl through the road traffic act you'll find the quoted text, but it would seem a simple Google search is too much for you.? 

[armsid]

I seem to recall that when we were in the EU we had directives some of which are still in force ie "if a vehicle is stopped by a police officer for a defective light the driver if carrying spare bulbs must be given a reasonable time to change such bulb in the officers presence therefore negatting the issue of a ticket However if the driver is not carrying spare bulbs for said light or it takes a long time tools etc req. then said officer can use disctretion to issue ticket.

[Rewulf]

52 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

Why have you now injected bald tyres into the mix?

7 hours ago, Rem260 said:

Are you saying that you view minor motoring offences as crimes ? Defective lights. Non standard licence plate, No seat belt, bald tyre etcetera. As I would say that most traffic stops come under this capacity.

I didn't, you did, but according to you, they don't matter either? 

[Vince Green]

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I feel for you , my sister lives in Harrow , as house prices go up , the area goes down , its mind boggling how bad its getting.

 

I have a flat in Harrow and I agree

[Rem260]

14 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Best just throw him in the cells then? 

 

Sigh * OK, you can drive around with defects on your car, and no one's bothered about it. 

As usual you try and deflect by throwing out of context snippets from other posts. Whilst ignoring other parts where you are wrong.

Legal advice section from moneysupermarket. I'm sure if you trawl through the road traffic act you'll find the quoted text, but it would seem a simple Google search is too much for you.? 

It would seem it was to much for you to research it properly!!!!

Use a Motor Vehicle on a Road Fail to [Maintain Lamps / Reflectors / Rear Markings / Devices in Working Order / Clean]

CJS Offence Code: RL89161

Offence Wording: Use a Motor Vehicle on a Road Fail to [Maintain Lamps / Reflectors / Rear Markings / Devices in Working Order / Clean]

Contrary to regulation 23(1) of the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989, section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and Schedule 2 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.

This offence carries a fine of £50 and no penalty points

I await your next deflection or silence.