Hortonium lead shot alternative

[GunQuarter]

15 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

lots of interesting information, but you do not need a muzzle velocity 1500 ft/sec to kill game and momentum/recoil will be high in a light game gun. Then Hortonium is shown at a lower density then Bismuth. I also disagree that bismuth needs a plastic cup wad.

 

It is plastic or cupped wad but people do achieve this in other ways. i.e some coat in tin (still shatters). The CIP guidelines are below. Only Hortonium and Lead fall into type A shot at the moment. Early steel shot was coated but they've moved away from that with better wad technology. The latest wads are ok but when the barrels get hot the wads melt and have to be cleaned out of the barrel with boiling water. The document I've snipped below is one part of 47 pages and I've read the lot two or three times.

[GunQuarter]

18 hours ago, holloway said:

This will all come as a real eye opener to all of the wild fowlers who have been using Bismuth to good effect for over 10 years .Are you sure your not just trying to discredit any competition to your new shot , (honestly mind ).

I'm not trying to discredit anything. I am merely pointing out the short comings of an alternative on the market. The Royal Society for Chemistry describe Bismuth as brittle. https://www.rsc.org/periodic-table/element/83/bismuth It does mix with tin but doesn't blend at an isotope level. This is fact and proven. It is why Bio Ammo can't be pushed at the same velocities as lead (FACT) and if it is, it starts to break up.

We have invented something that is as lead like as you can get. For the shooter who wants a quick cartridge and use of chokes, it will suit them. It gives people choice. You are free to make yours.

[Old farrier]

38 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Hi, Have you seen the update in "Steel On A Sim Day" at Guns and Equip'?

Is this relevant to my question about the product being made available to home loaders 🤔

[wymberley]

25 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Is this relevant to my question about the product being made available to home loaders 🤔

Possibly, I was trying to be helpful but will leave that decision up to you.

[Smudger687]

3 hours ago, GunQuarter said:

I'm not trying to discredit anything. I am merely pointing out the short comings of an alternative on the market. The Royal Society for Chemistry describe Bismuth as brittle. https://www.rsc.org/periodic-table/element/83/bismuth It does mix with tin but doesn't blend at an isotope level. This is fact and proven. It is why Bio Ammo can't be pushed at the same velocities as lead (FACT) and if it is, it starts to break up.

We have invented something that is as lead like as you can get. For the shooter who wants a quick cartridge and use of chokes, it will suit them. It gives people choice. You are free to make yours.

You are being disingenuous here.

Elemental bismuth, i.e. pure bismuth, is brittle. Alloyed with tin (not what the RSC page on bismuth is referring to) is sufficiently malleable to enable it to be used as shot. Yes it will shatter when hit with a hammer, but it does not need to stand up to being hit with a hammer. 

Doesn't blend at an isotope level? Proven? 

I must admit I have no idea what you're talking about, combining any two elements together in any compound or alloy you care to think of is not going to change the isotope ratio of those elements. Isotopes refer to differences in neutron count for any given element, and make little to no difference in chemical bonding which is determined by electron count and proton number. Please provide evidence of the proof that you speak of.

Bioammo does not use bismuth, it uses a bismuth, tin, zinc and aluminium alloy. Even if your comment about bioammo's shot breaking up were true, its moot when discussing tin-bismuth shot. The fact of the matter is that their blue shot is only slightly more dense than steel (so doesn't benefit from higher density and inertia making it more resistant to deviation through the air), and is highly irregularly shaped (thereby causing unbalanced air flow around the pellet and making it move off course), both of which are exacerbated by higher velocities. Bioammo aren't even targeting wildfowlers or the extremes of performance with their blue alloy, they're going for the driven and walked up boys that want a comfortable cartridge that works out to 40 ish yards, so high velocity doesn't help them achieve that. High velocity also isn't even necessary with denser shot materials, even if bismuth did break apart at 1450 fps, bismuth running at 1300 fps will kill at any range you care to shoot at. 

You've criticised bismuth as not being a viable long range option, yet the reality is that buffered bismuth loads using spherical bismuth shot and full-length cup wads usually pattern extremely well, and given that bismuth-tin alloy is denser than hortonium, I don't see how you can claim that hortonium is a better option for longer ranges - density is everything with long range shooting, this is why TSS is so much better than anything else.

The hortonium shot I've seen you produce is extremely irregular, which also doesn't help when you want to claim good long range performance. This may well be improved over time, so I remain open-minded. 

The only selling point for hortonium (that I can see) is that it is malleable, but beyond that I see nothing working in its favour compared to the other options, and unlike bismuth which can be cast at home for a fraction of the price of commercial shot, hortonium cannot. 

[rbrowning2]

11 hours ago, GunQuarter said:

 Early steel shot was coated but they've moved away from that

Yet you can buy both copper or zinc coated steel shot for reloading.

Now if on,y Hortonium was similar price to lead.

Their are only so many elements on the periodic table and many different white metal non lead alloys for all sorts of applications so possibly it’s all already available like non lead pewter, solder, bearings or the many low melting point bismuth alloys, with uses from fire sprinklers to tube bending.

[Old farrier]

20 hours ago, wymberley said:

Possibly, I was trying to be helpful but will leave that decision up to you.

I’m trying to make a informed decision 

personally think the best way would probably be to get some shot load it and shoot it 

appreciate it’s expensive but 20% cheaper than bismuth for my 410 is a help 

it appears that this product along with many others in the non lead range maybe difficult to obtain 

[Scully]

17 hours ago, Smudger687 said:

You are being disingenuous here.

Elemental bismuth, i.e. pure bismuth, is brittle. Alloyed with tin (not what the RSC page on bismuth is referring to) is sufficiently malleable to enable it to be used as shot. Yes it will shatter when hit with a hammer, but it does not need to stand up to being hit with a hammer. 

Doesn't blend at an isotope level? Proven? 

I must admit I have no idea what you're talking about, combining any two elements together in any compound or alloy you care to think of is not going to change the isotope ratio of those elements. Isotopes refer to differences in neutron count for any given element, and make little to no difference in chemical bonding which is determined by electron count and proton number. Please provide evidence of the proof that you speak of.

Bioammo does not use bismuth, it uses a bismuth, tin, zinc and aluminium alloy. Even if your comment about bioammo's shot breaking up were true, its moot when discussing tin-bismuth shot. The fact of the matter is that their blue shot is only slightly more dense than steel (so doesn't benefit from higher density and inertia making it more resistant to deviation through the air), and is highly irregularly shaped (thereby causing unbalanced air flow around the pellet and making it move off course), both of which are exacerbated by higher velocities. Bioammo aren't even targeting wildfowlers or the extremes of performance with their blue alloy, they're going for the driven and walked up boys that want a comfortable cartridge that works out to 40 ish yards, so high velocity doesn't help them achieve that. High velocity also isn't even necessary with denser shot materials, even if bismuth did break apart at 1450 fps, bismuth running at 1300 fps will kill at any range you care to shoot at. 

You've criticised bismuth as not being a viable long range option, yet the reality is that buffered bismuth loads using spherical bismuth shot and full-length cup wads usually pattern extremely well, and given that bismuth-tin alloy is denser than hortonium, I don't see how you can claim that hortonium is a better option for longer ranges - density is everything with long range shooting, this is why TSS is so much better than anything else.

The hortonium shot I've seen you produce is extremely irregular, which also doesn't help when you want to claim good long range performance. This may well be improved over time, so I remain open-minded. 

The only selling point for hortonium (that I can see) is that it is malleable, but beyond that I see nothing working in its favour compared to the other options, and unlike bismuth which can be cast at home for a fraction of the price of commercial shot, hortonium cannot. 

The wealth of knowledge on this forum astounds me at times. 

[HantsRob]

On 20/11/2023 at 19:12, rbrowning2 said:

lots of interesting information, but you do not need a muzzle velocity 1500 ft/sec to kill game and momentum/recoil will be high in a light game gun. Then Hortonium is shown at a lower density then Bismuth. I also disagree that bismuth needs a plastic cup wad.

 

I do have a bit of an issue around Hortonium being labelled as such, as it's a brand name and not a metal such as steel, lead etc. But, I woudn't know what else to call it, maybe it'll become the hoover of the vacuum industry as a brand everyone knows and loves. I am intrigued to hear what game shooters feel about it, and clay shooters also. I guess the proof will be in the pudding through use! If it is cheap and viable then it certainly will be adopted by the market.

I am curious as to how bismuth patterns with both plastic and fibre. I am not challenging your comment, just curious why the table that's not yours insists plastic cup.

[rbrowning2]

On 22/11/2023 at 08:48, HantsRob said:

 

I do have a bit of an issue around Hortonium being labelled as such, as it's a brand name and not a metal such as steel, lead etc. But, I woudn't know what else to call it, maybe it'll become the hoover of the vacuum industry as a brand everyone knows and loves. I am intrigued to hear what game shooters feel about it, and clay shooters also. I guess the proof will be in the pudding through use! If it is cheap and viable then it certainly will be adopted by the market.

I am curious as to how bismuth patterns with both plastic and fibre. I am not challenging your comment, just curious why the table that's not yours insists plastic cup.

The first ever non toxic shot cartridges i used on duck were Eley VIP fibre wads, provided i put the shot in the correct place the duck came down, but never patterned any of the cartridges. 

edit to add that was bismuth shot.

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by rbrowning2

[London Best]

Long before Eley VIP were born, Eley Grand Prix and Impax were available with bismuth but I know at least some of them were plastic wads. Not sure if any were fibre. But they all certainly killed ducks no problem. I still have a few somewhere.

[Smudger687]

On 22/11/2023 at 08:48, HantsRob said:

 

I do have a bit of an issue around Hortonium being labelled as such, as it's a brand name and not a metal such as steel, lead etc. But, I woudn't know what else to call it, maybe it'll become the hoover of the vacuum industry as a brand everyone knows and loves. I am intrigued to hear what game shooters feel about it, and clay shooters also. I guess the proof will be in the pudding through use! If it is cheap and viable then it certainly will be adopted by the market.

I am curious as to how bismuth patterns with both plastic and fibre. I am not challenging your comment, just curious why the table that's not yours insists plastic cup.

Anything that will help reduce deformation of the shot will help downrange patterns and performance; cup wads prevent barrel scrubbing, crush sections help to cushion the shot on firing, buffer helps to spread the crushing forces between pellets etc. 

I suspect at least some of the reputation it has, however, is simply down to the fact that most bismuth shot is not spherical at all, whereas good lead shot can be found easily. We're used to the performance of having good lead shot in our fibre wads, so when this is swapped for poor quality bismuth shot then you're almost always going to see a drop-off in performance, which again is accentuated by its reduced density compared to lead. 

[HantsRob]

On 24/11/2023 at 21:32, Smudger687 said:

Anything that will help reduce deformation of the shot will help downrange patterns and performance; cup wads prevent barrel scrubbing, crush sections help to cushion the shot on firing, buffer helps to spread the crushing forces between pellets etc. 

I suspect at least some of the reputation it has, however, is simply down to the fact that most bismuth shot is not spherical at all, whereas good lead shot can be found easily. We're used to the performance of having good lead shot in our fibre wads, so when this is swapped for poor quality bismuth shot then you're almost always going to see a drop-off in performance, which again is accentuated by its reduced density compared to lead. 

Your knowledge always astounds me, I enjoy your talks around a clay ground.