2 and a 1/2 year old male lab

[billy86]

Looking for a bit of advice 

my 2.5 year old lab dog is giving me a lot of headaches.

80%of the time he listens to commands and carries them out reasonably well , then the other 20% he’s a complete tool 

he is bad at bitching and if he gets a scent he will drop dummies , ignore recall etc and clear off and not return to me 

getting him castrated shortly so hopefully that helps with the bitching 

[old'un]

from reading your post I suppose the harsh answer is, he is not trained.

Obviously not knowing what training you have given your dog and how well grounded each part of that training was before moving onto the next stage its difficult to give advice but it sounds like the dog maybe bored with you and your canvas dummy, far more interesting things out there for a bored teenager.

It maybe a case of taking a few steps back and working on his faults till they are well grounded.

[billy86]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

from reading your post I suppose the harsh answer is, he is not trained.

Obviously not knowing what training you have given your dog and how well grounded each part of that training was before moving onto the next stage its difficult to give advice but it sounds like the dog maybe bored with you and your canvas dummy, far more interesting things out there for a bored teenager.

It maybe a case of taking a few steps back and working on his faults till they are well grounded.

Thanks for the reply 

Any tips for recall , he does know what it means just seems to ignore it at times 

when I have the long lead on him there is no issues but when it’s off , he is back to doing his own thing 

[old'un]

it sounds like you are not driving the commands home, if you have let him get away with it once then he will keep trying it on, as I said think you need to take a few steps back and get him well grounded in each command, he must obey it every time it is given until he learns who is the boss, never give a command if you cannot drive it home.

How fast does he go out for the retrieve and does he return at the same pace?

[billy86]

17 minutes ago, old'un said:

it sounds like you are not driving the commands home, if you have let him get away with it once then he will keep trying it on, as I said think you need to take a few steps back and get him well grounded in each command, he must obey it every time it is given until he learns who is the boss, never give a command if you cannot drive it home.

How fast does he go out for the retrieve and does he return at the same pace?

He would go out and back at full pace 

if he’s off the long lead and ignores the recall do you chase after him or walk away 

[bigroomboy]

You need to reinforce you still must be respected at distance.bthere are a few ways to do this but it's one of the harder dog training aspects. You are doing one of those with the long line. But you must be consistent. Don't do a couple of easy goes on the long line then allow him freedom in a more challenging situation where he gets away with ignoring you. Continue with the long line in progressively more difficult situations. Immediately correct any unwanted behaviour with the line and keep doing that untill you think he has it 100%. Other options or you may want to use following that: you need to be energetic. If he is out there dicking you around you need to charge out there and grab him to correct. But don't do this it you are not quick enough to get him every time or it can turn into a game of chase. Second if allowed where you are use a training collar.

[billy86]

7 minutes ago, bigroomboy said:

You need to reinforce you still must be respected at distance.bthere are a few ways to do this but it's one of the harder dog training aspects. You are doing one of those with the long line. But you must be consistent. Don't do a couple of easy goes on the long line then allow him freedom in a more challenging situation where he gets away with ignoring you. Continue with the long line in progressively more difficult situations. Immediately correct any unwanted behaviour with the line and keep doing that untill you think he has it 100%. Other options or you may want to use following that: you need to be energetic. If he is out there dicking you around you need to charge out there and grab him to correct. But don't do this it you are not quick enough to get him every time or it can turn into a game of chase. Second if allowed where you are use a training collar.

Thanks for the reply

i have no chance of catching him lol

only I am able to get him is if he’s cornered against sheep fencing / hedge etc 

when I do catch him what is the best way to correct him ?  I have been hard on him before but he takes no notice off it 

 

[bigroomboy]

Glad it's helpful. Correction can be quite a personal thing and it's easier if properly instilled from a puppy stage. My view is it's not about being rough with a dog, that can be very negative. It's more about being "oi pay attention". With good dog trainers you can see they are able to do this just with verbal tones after getting it set in as a puppy. With an older dog who is stronger it can be more difficult to be effective. If it were me I would put a short slim training lead on him. You can make your own from good stuff thin cord. Hanging no lower than leg hight so it doesn't get in the way. Then you have something to get hold of. Give it a sharp tug to sit him up in front of you. I've seen other people give them a little tug on the ear or roll them over and give them a bit of a shake - good luck doing that with a lab but I'm a spaniel man.

[old'un]

Some good advice from bigroomboy there.

I will say it again, I think you need to take a few steps back with training.

Stop being hard on the dog, you need to show him what you want, find an area where you have control (no escape) couple of things you can try are, find a track that’s got boundaries either side (hedge, buildings) throw a dummy and send for retrieve, as he’s on the way out, hide but try to keep him in view, as soon as he reaches the dummy blow the return whistle, he may panic a bit seeing you not there but should return, give loads of praise, dont over do it, once or twice per training lesson is plenty.

Correcting the dog, lets take sit and walk away, take a piece of carpet with you (about two feet square) place it on the ground, bring the dog over the carpet and give the sit command then walk away backward, at this point only walk away about 5 or 6 feet, return to the dog and give loads of praise, continue to increase the distance, should he run towards you without a command to-do so, calmly walk towards him and take him back, I used to pick mine up and carry them back to the carpet and repeat the sit command and the walk away, once you have some distance between you and the dog (25 yards) give the return command, as soon as he gets to you give him tons of praise, again dont over do it.

To sum-up it sounds like your training as been lacking and you have let him get away with ignoring a command, never repeat a command if you know the dog as heard the command, but make sure you drive it home without being hard on the dog, just show him what you want.

[billy86]

2 hours ago, bigroomboy said:

You need to reinforce you still must be respected at distance.bthere are a few ways to do this but it's one of the harder dog training aspects. You are doing one of those with the long line. But you must be consistent. Don't do a couple of easy goes on the long line then allow him freedom in a more challenging situation where he gets away with ignoring you. Continue with the long line in progressively more difficult situations. Immediately correct any unwanted behaviour with the line and keep doing that untill you think he has it 100%. Other options or you may want to use following that: you need to be energetic. If he is out there dicking you around you need to charge out there and grab him to correct. But don't do this it you are not quick enough to get him every time or it can turn into a game of chase. Second if allowed where you are use a training collar.

If you where to use a training collar would you just give him a tap when he ignores the recall whistle 

[billy86]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

Some good advice from bigroomboy there.

I will say it again, I think you need to take a few steps back with training.

Stop being hard on the dog, you need to show him what you want, find an area where you have control (no escape) couple of things you can try are, find a track that’s got boundaries either side (hedge, buildings) throw a dummy and send for retrieve, as he’s on the way out, hide but try to keep him in view, as soon as he reaches the dummy blow the return whistle, he may panic a bit seeing you not there but should return, give loads of praise, dont over do it, once or twice per training lesson is plenty.

Correcting the dog, lets take sit and walk away, take a piece of carpet with you (about two feet square) place it on the ground, bring the dog over the carpet and give the sit command then walk away backward, at this point only walk away about 5 or 6 feet, return to the dog and give loads of praise, continue to increase the distance, should he run towards you without a command to-do so, calmly walk towards him and take him back, I used to pick mine up and carry them back to the carpet and repeat the sit command and the walk away, once you have some distance between you and the dog (25 yards) give the return command, as soon as he gets to you give him tons of praise, again dont over do it.

To sum-up it sounds like your training as been lacking and you have let him get away with ignoring a command, never repeat a command if you know the dog as heard the command, but make sure you drive it home without being hard on the dog, just show him what you want.

Thank you will add these suggestions into my training 

[Dave at kelton]

This is all about the basic training. Many people make the mistake of thinking that having trained a dog in one environment it translates to all. Dogs don’t equate learning say sit and stay in the garden to doing the same in an open field. Add other excitements such as smell and you multiply the problem . You have to train a dog by repeating each lesson through all, or as many, of the environments the dog will come across. It is called conditioning and is why my dogs don’t get out working until 2 years old at least. I am working them through increasingly difficult training scenarios moving on only when I feel it is nailed on.

On the subject of control I am an advocate of paracord long lines. They are strong enough to stop a dog but light enough for them to barely notice. I just leave them trailing and am never afraid to use them if a dog messes me about at any age. I am not an advocate of electric collars but do recognise their benefits in extreme circumstances like sheep or deer chasing.

As to correction I get at the dog and take it by the scruff back to where it committed the offence and give it a serious talking to.

Overall I agree with previous posts that you have to go back to basics and get them nailed on.

Hope this helps and good luck

[12gauge82]

Don't punish a dog that hasn't recalled, you are just giving it more reason not to come back to you.

You need to first figure out if there are specific reasons or events that are causing the dog not to come back, you mentioned bitching is one, are there others?

Secondly you need to figure out what your dogs biggest reward is and use that to call it back to you, I have a special recall command (basically an emergency recall) for all my dogs that always ends in their highest reward, I have drilled it and drilled it, working up to different locations, distractions and at odd times when the dogs don't expect a reward, it has resulted in dogs with a guaranteed recall that will handbrake turn and come back at full speed whenever I want.

[billy86]

55 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

ou need to first figure out if there are specific reasons or events that are causing the dog not to come back, you mentioned bitching is one, are there others?

Only getting a scent off a animal or another dog in the area I am training him 

[12gauge82]

59 minutes ago, billy86 said:

Only getting a scent off a animal or another dog in the area I am training him 

How driven is he for toys food ect, what's he most driven for? Or is he finding a greater self reward by bitching and following other scents?

Edited August 8, 2023 by 12gauge82

[billy86]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

How driven is he for toys food ect, what's he most driven for? Or is he finding a greater self reward by bitching and following other scents?

Definitely greater self  reward bitching and following other scents 

[Lloyd90]

9 hours ago, billy86 said:

If you where to use a training collar would you just give him a tap when he ignores the recall whistle 

I wouldn’t use one without knowing exactly what you are doing as they can confused the dog and cause other issues of timing is off. 

Besides you’ll just end up with the same issue as with the long line; the dog will only listen when the collar is on. 
 

Personally I would go and see a good experienced trainer for some 1:1 lessons. 
 

The dog has some training but those commands are not fully proofed in all situations.

[PERCE]

The vet is the only person that will benefit from removing the nads from your dog. It's not the golden ticket that'll make it come back & I'd be fairly certain that the dog will continue to bitch. Your money is better spent having lessons from someone that knows what they're doing. 

[12gauge82]

On 08/08/2023 at 22:18, billy86 said:

Definitely greater self  reward bitching and following other scents 

Appoliges for not replying earlier, it sounds like your recall issue is very fixable but unfortunately without having the dog in front of me it's hard to advise. Lloyd has suggested exactly what I would. 

A couple of sessions with a decent trainer will work out a system that you can follow to put it right.

Don't blame yourself either, it's always trickier when a dog can self reward with an unwanted behaviour that it holds higher than a reward you can give it. But it is almost always something that is fixable to. Let us know how you get on.

[billy86]

On 08/08/2023 at 19:20, 12gauge82 said:

ou need to first figure out if there are specific reasons or events that are causing the dog not to come back, you mentioned bitching is one, are there others?

Only getting a scent off a animal or another dog in the area I am training him 

15 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Appoliges for not replying earlier, it sounds like your recall issue is very fixable but unfortunately without having the dog in front of me it's hard to advise. Lloyd has suggested exactly what I would. 

A couple of sessions with a decent trainer will work out a system that you can follow to put it right.

Don't blame yourself either, it's always trickier when a dog can self reward with an unwanted behaviour that it holds higher than a reward you can give it. But it is almost always something that is fixable to. Let us know how you get on.

Thanks everyone for the responses